Questioning my rural relocation strategy...

[suburban_junkscape]

not quite

[MicroHydro]

This is a major paradox a lot of us run into. During the summer I visited a place that is:
...  B) an economic backwater. Anybody with any bit of an enterprising spirit generally leaves the place. The population that is left is has a particularly high proportion of retired folks and human trash.

New Zealand EXACTLY!   I just served on a jury trial of a piece of human trash.  He was one of three white Kiwi "men" aged 22 - 23 who had known each other since elementary school.  They were smoking dope in an apartment when they ran out of dope and money.  Of note the apartment had no power because the renter had spent all of his welfare money on drugs, didn't pay his power bill, and the electricity had been turned off.  Then they looted the downstairs apartments which were undergoing renovation.  They stole a stainless steel kitchen sink and sold it at a scrap yard for $20 to buy more dope.  The perp on trial was nailed because his fingerprints were found inside the looted apartment's window.

Now here comes the good part.  The perp had a defense.  He did not break into the apartment to steal the sink.  He said he broke into the apartment to plug in an extension cord to steal electricity!  Of note, even with the conviction, burglars in NZ don't get jail time until they have quite a record.

This is already seriously degenerate behavior while the Kiwi economy is still booming with record low unemployment.  A Neanderthal could get a job as a bricklayer in this market.  Can you imagine what these people will be like when their welfare benefits go away?

[Jofiga]

Thanks for posting those maps. Real good.

As far as the rocky mountains, forget anything west of the 100th meridian. Short growing season. As far as hunting, everything you can hunt will have been hunted within 2 weeks of TSHTF. As far as living in -40 anything, screw that. I'm shivering at +40 degrees.

Dont live west of the 100th meridian??   LOL    all the prime agricultural land is west of the 100th meridian.  The winters are cold but the summers are long enough to produce more than enough food to last the winter.  Everything will be hunted within 2 weeks?  Maybe in the states(70 million people who own guns), but up here in Canada there will be plenty (approx 4 million people who own guns, the majority of which are farmers who wont need to hunt as they have cattle and even if they did want to hunt its one hell of a drive from the prarie to the mountains).  After all, if it costs $500 to fill up your tank with gas whos going to drive 9 hours to hunt?

[Jofiga]

Oh yeah, one more thing,  If -40 is too cold for the majority of the population thats a good thing. Nobody will want to move up here making it less sketchy as far as im concerned 

[auntiegrav]

Some good posts and a lot of thinking going on here. 

My view of cities is not so favorable. Anything over 100,000 people is totally unrealistic as a habitat in resource shortage. Eventually, the PTB will have to apply logic to their situation, and barring any miraculous discoveries, population reduction will be coming along, whether actively pursued or by default and starvation. Most of the large cities are on coastlines that will be under water, most of the suburbs are simply black holes of resource consumption. The final solution will be some form of feudalism, with government supporting labor on farms and labor in small cities where real goods are manufactured.

Food will be the basis for currency: if it's edible, it's tradeable. Until things stabilize (the "market clears") on demand/supply/population/transportation/politics, then the 'promissory note' and even gold will be at the mercy of banditocracy. One day, you may be able to trade a gold ring for your week's worth of food, another day, you may not be able to get a day's bread for all the gold in the world.

We have been comfortably conditioned to think like economists: that increasing price will increase supply. That comfortable complacency comes from the availability of energy and especially oil for transport, farm expansions, business expansions, marketing and distribution expansions. These things don't exist in the LATOC future. The LATOC future is one of continuously increasing demand, continuously decreasing supply, and the violence and desperation which come from that.

Meanwhile, enjoy the corn likker while it lasts.

AG
"Who's checking the O-rings today?"

[Trimaran]

It was God himself who helped Atlanta -- prayers work.

Mith PM me if you like about this issue . . .

My thoughts: living neatr too many folks or too big
a city will cause too many problems. Look at Atlanta,
the Gov prayed for and got some rain.

I suggest a smaller city. Nicole often mentioned having
your electric come from hydro sources, anther thought.

[prophetlady]

Good evening, all. I'm new here--been lurking for awhile but haven't yet posted.

I could really use some good old-fashioned objective advice, if you would be so kind. Not of the Oprah or Dr. Phil ilk, just some common sense from like-minded folk.

The dilemma is this--I have a spouse that just simply refuses to believe in PO. I've been researching the topic for the past two years--read everything I can get my hands on--and I'm convinced we're headed for a major s---storm. He just can't bring himself to believe that technology, or good ole' American roll up your sleeves and git 'er done won't come to the rescue. He even really believes that all we need are some Democratic folks in the Big, I mean White House.

We're sitting in suburban MD, with our only saving grace being that we're sitting on five acres, but at the same time with a $2000/mo mortgage. I keep telling him that we could get out of here, pay off the mortgage, buy somewhere else for cash and put a load of money in the bank (well, for the time being anyway), but he just refuses to go for it. We have a nice comfy life and he's enjoying it just fine. He goes sailing, plays golf, and coaches high school basketball, and is just having a good 'ole time. After all, he reminds me, it's only four years until retirement and full pension!

My middle son is PO aware and has applied and been accepted to an ecovillage at the end of March. I'm sure he'll find his way--he's very resourceful. The other two don't have a clue and don't want a clue. They, along with my husband, think I've lost my marbles.

Has anyone else had to deal with spousal denial? How in the world do you overcome that? I've even had serious thoughts of forcing the issue through divorce. I'd get half of everything and could afford to bugout then, but jeez, that seems pretty extreme. I am able to work from home in a virtual organization, which is a definite benefit at the moment, but down the road . . .

Just wondering if anyone would care to offer a comment or two. Much appreciated!

[JurisDoctorOfDoom]

ProphetLady,

Many of us have similar stories. Can't say that anybody has come up with a solution, unfortunately.

[REDREAMER]

Hi there prophetlady..... thats a tough situation to be in..... tho it sounds like you have one smart son there.......

Denial is unfortunately non-changeable except by the person IN IT..... i guess its a question of perception and some people find drastic change impossible to take on board.

I have to agree with JDD..... my husband and I while we dicker about the details are united in our quest for knowledge skills and preparation...... i can't imagine facing the future with a partner in denial.... best wishes to you and i hope you find a way forward. Divorce seems pretty drastic.

[freedom]

prophetlady • I can relate, sorta. My non-PO believers are my six children. For the past several years, I've sent them bunches of PO, war, stolen elections, rising seas blah blah information, also DVDs, and also mentioned PO and Solutions conferences I've attended. To no avail ... I get everything from "Mom, these are your golden years, enjoy them", to "if you don't like it here, why don't you move to some other country?" When I think of how unprepared they are, my heart hurts. I go in-and-out of stages of grief and anguish and fear around this and have now reached the point where I say to myself "Carol, take care of yourself, do what's right for you, given what you know". I've developed something of a hardness around my heart, and mind. I know that I am powerless to change them and that I cannot make them see what they are unable to see. But, it feels horrible nonetheless. It feels like I'm abandoning them, but, at the same time, they are very adult children, smart about many things, but definitely caught up in our culture ... and I've tried ... to the point where one of my daughters said "don't send my anything anymore. It scares me." So, I don't. And, I seesaw between "OK, I tried; you're on your own", and "Oh my God, please listen." Talk about crazy-making.


The saving grace for me is forums like this and others where I can read what people are thinking and doing in an effort to prepare themselves. I used to feel nuts but don't anymore. You haven't lost your marbles either, prophetlady. I strongly urge that you stay connected to LATOC and other sites to help you stay focused ... yes, we are in collapse, there are no solutions, only options, and we have to decide what our responsibilities are. The future looks dark but, for me, staying connected with those who think as I do, helps me to stay on track and keep on keepin' on. If I don't stay in contact, I begin to slip into old, comfortable thinking, and that this is only an aberration, crazy, not as bad as I thought, and that I will be OK. Well, I'm only OK as long as I stay focused and take action, which I'm doing.

I've read elsewhere that relationships are difficult to maintain when the partners see something of this magnitude so differently, so in that, you are not alone. I wish you all the best, and hope you stay in touch with your friends out here.

[Mosby43]

On the rural vs. city issue. The importance of water transportation cannot be overstated. Once built (or salvaged) a vessel with sufficient room to carry even medium amounts of cargo will prove very useful and if cared for will last for a long time. Before King Coal and rolling mill steel rails, our rivers and coasts were our highways. Mass amounts of trade and transportation plied their waters with boats built from wood (mostly).

Such a vessel could turn a place in an "economic backwater" on the upper Hudson, for example, into a sustainable venture serving larger population centers by water....as it was before. Drift down and sail/steam/row/tow/solar/moonshine fuel back for another load.

Give me a fast ship for I intend to take her into harms way.

[Sasquatch]

It was God himself who helped Atlanta -- prayers work.

Where's the vomit icon when I need one?

[Sammi]

I faced the same situation with my BF. He went from, "it'll never happen, we've got tar sands," to "it'll affect the US, but we in Canada will be okay," to "when, I mean if, peak oil hits, then. . ."

Does your husband have any skills at all? You mentioned sailing: perhaps ask him to let you come along? (Sailing will probably be a fairly viable post-crash method of getting around.) When he asks why, mention PO, but keep that secondary to the skill you want to learn. I was lucky in this regard: my BF does camping and all kinds of wilderness survival, not to mention he lives on a farm--he gives me all kinds of advice.

Learn to counter his specific objections. I managed to get one large step forward with my BF by pointing out the exact EROEI on the tar sands.

Are there things you can do without your husband? Maybe take up knitting or preserving food as a hobby. Get rabbits "as pets." Some places allow chickens--although you might have more trouble getting your husband to agree, since they're less of a conventional pet than rabbits.

To quote Red Green on this, "I'm pulling for you, we're all in this together."

[Thuja]

Why ruin the kin's  last years of perpetual growth-based paradise?   They can sit naked in a tub of jetted hot water while eatin Brie flown half way round the world while watching intricate dramas broadcast on high definition TV.   And you want to make them think about manual labor, stored food and armnaments?  Let them have their fun...theres only a little bit left- if they want to spend it dreaming the night away, why begrudge them their folly?  

[Michelle]

It was God himself who helped Atlanta -- prayers work.

Where's the vomit icon when I need one?

such temper
i'm quite respectful of those with views unlike mine