Most people don't care

[SaraBeth]

Ad infinitum , ad nauseam  the american public is simply debacled out and can no longer respond properly to impending doom .Through all those things the machine has kept on rolling supplying petroleum and its products.  They can no longer respond because for a good many of them doom has already arrived .

You're right...look around at your friends and family...how many are depressed and are either taking pills for it, or are self-medicating.... at an instinctual level people KNOW that things are just not "right"....but they are not able to put their finger on THE problem because there are so MANY problems... it is overwhelming to most people...

[007]

I believe that many remember y2k and how things were going to be bad, but nothing happened, and here we are in their
eyes crying wolf again

[kermujin]

I believe that many remember y2k and how things were going to be bad, but nothing happened, and here we are in their
eyes crying wolf again

Yep. That's what I get from people all the time. I wasn't a freak about Y2K, but I was concerned, and stocked up a bit just in case. Now when I mention anything, I get eye rolls.

However, I've started encouraging friends to start stocking up on things like flour, 'because apparently prices are going up.' Seems to be easier for people to take, and it's gotten a couple extra staples into friends' houses.

Baby steps, eh? Sheesh.

[007]

I too do the same thing, when I meet people especially if they have little ones I tell them that they should stock up for emergencies like hurricanes and earthquakes. I tell them that the govt says to stock 2 weeks worth but they should probably do 2 months just in case the emergency is more severe. They seem to be more apt to accept this instead of PO or terrorism, and I remind them that their kids are depending on them to keep them safe etc. Seems to work.

[Nicholas]

PFFT Y2K!! What a sham! I knew that was the most pathetic excuse for a dooms day scenario even before it was debunked. Remember its NOT the failure of technology that will fuck us, its the lack of energy, its all about the energy, everything is an energy system, all energy is tied together as though it were a beautiful ballet dancing though the space and time of the space itself, we're as connected to the sun as we are to our mothers, in an energy sort of way.

Once you release that, only then will you realize how truly up the clacker all of us really are.

[theozarker]

I've read this thread with great interest (as I do most threads on this board).  Maybe it's because I'm 67, my grandparents (with whom I lived for a few months when I was about five) were both born within 10-15 years of the end of the Civil War and were hardscrabble farmers who raised 12 kids on those farms, my parents lived through WW I, the Great Depression and WW II.  My grandparents plowed their garden with a hand plow, their fields with a mule team, had no electricity until they retired and moved into town in 1942, no indoor plumbing until 1954.   My parents lived the same way, as rural pastor and wife, until they moved us to Wichita during WW II.  We did have electricity and indoor plumbing there, but no TV or air conditioning, or even a car until the mid fifties.  And my mother still had an old icebox that the iceman came by and filled with a block of ice, until after the second World War.  When I graduated high school in 1958 and worked in a hospital in Wichita while I started college, that was three years before the first Coronary Care unit was started in Philadelphia in 1961.

All of these people - my grandparents and aunts and uncles, my parents, me and my brothers and sister - were relatively happy with the lives we led at those times in our family history.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "chill out a little".  People lived happy, productive lives throughout the history of this country and many others with and without oil.  Yes, in some ways their lives were much harder;  and in some ways their lives were much better. (I still remember those family dinners at my grandparents house, where all the 12 kids and their kids were there, everyone brought one or two dishes of something to contribute, and the table and cabinets were so full of food that by the time dinner was over, all you could do was groan with pleasure and find a place to flop until you were light enough to sit up again.)

Most of us, if we stop to think about it, have similar family histories.  We may not know all the subtleties of hand plowing a garden or plowing a field with a mule team, (I suspect, from family stories I've heard, neither did many of them when they started out  ), but most of us, and surprisingly most of the people we dismiss as sheeple sometime - yes, I call them that too occasionally- will figure it out as we go, just like my grandparents and parents did, just like I have on many occasions myself, just like you have too, if you stop to think back over your lives.

And for those who just didn't get it, but were too stubborn to die, my hope is that we who did get it and prepared a little better, will give what help we can until they figure things out.  Yeah, we will have things and knowledge they need, but I'd bet that when pressed by what may be coming, most of them have at least one small talent that we forgot to plan for and need too.

I still like what Winston Churchill said to the British people in WW II, "If we do not all hang together, we will surely all hang separately".  Whatever help the government is or isn't in the coming crisis, for most of us, this is still the best advice we'll ever get.

Linda 

[Nicholas]

All of these people - my grandparents and aunts and uncles, my parents, me and my brothers and sister - were relatively happy with the lives we led at those times in our family history.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, "chill out a little".  People lived happy, productive lives throughout the history of this country and many others with and without oil. 

I just don't think you've really grasped the situation your about to face, let me tell you some things.

My grandparents are German and they lived through WWII, their lives during that time was far from happy/chilled out, in fact they were miserable, killings, rape and starvation were the main hardships that my grandmother faced after the collapse of Germany to the Russians, so let me tell you that if you think your going to 'chill out' come social collapse, then I just don't think you know what your about to be facing.

You can chill out all you want at the moment, there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn’t do anyone any good by getting into hysterics before anything has happened, but when the shit hits the fan, I guaran-dam-tee you, you will be far from chilled out.

And just remember that people lived happy and productive lives back then because post great depression/WWII, the human race has experienced unprecedented gains in energy output which is really what equates to everyone’s delusional/perpetual state of happiness. We’re about to face nothing that the humans race has ever experienced ever, for the first time the human race is going to go from having more and more energy to having less and less of it, I just find it hard to chill out when the facts are in front of me.

[LindaE]

Thanks, Linda.  I needed that after just ordering another 75 pounds of wheat berries and beans from Azure Standard.  A little note of sanity on the day oil went over $93 and my gas station in W WA went to 3.15.

Yes, we can survive, and we can reach out to help others too.  I have a terrible time with the idea of blowing off someone who's hungry and sniffing around and smells my stew cooking on the wood stove.  I'll have the means to do it, but maybe not the heart.

LindaE

[Bruce]

O.K. I'm making a list of those WHO GET IT. Nickolas gets it................................. Bruce

[710]

It isn't the human race that's going to run short of energy, just the overwhelming majority of it.

There are a few human cultures on this planet who are still far removed from our level consumption and devastation.  I'd guess that population to be somewhere around 25K to 50K people worldwide.

But the rest of the population will face collapse that cultures have seen before in a few instances:
* During the time of the Toba volcanic eruption, about 70K years ago, the worldwide human population dropped from a few million to as little as ten thousand breeding pairs
* The Norse Greenland colony collapsed
* The Hohokam disappeared
* Native American cultures were decimated

We have faced problems like this before, just never on such a huge scale.  Some humans will go on, living a very different way of life.

But most humans will not.  Just like in the past.

History isn't on Repeat, but it is on Shuffle.  We can expect that what happened before will eventually happen again.

[theozarker]

You can chill out all you want at the moment, there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn’t do anyone any good by getting into hysterics before anything has happened, but when the shit hits the fan, I guaran-dam-tee you, you will be far from chilled out.

And just remember that people lived happy and productive lives back then because post great depression/WWII, the human race has experienced unprecedented gains in energy output which is really what equates to everyone’s delusional/perpetual state of happiness. We’re about to face nothing that the humans race has ever experienced ever, for the first time the human race is going to go from having more and more energy to having less and less of it, I just find it hard to chill out when the facts are in front of me.

I think you are wrong, Nicholas.  We have rape and crime here in the US right now, always have had.  There have been rapes, murders. lootings throughout history and our own society is/has been no stranger to them throughout its 200+ year history.  The Civil War (especially along the border states) is but one example.  Yes, we are totally dependent on oil and fossil fuels right now, but this society existed for almost 100 years without those energy sources, and other societies existed for millennia without them too. 

I have no doubt that it will be a very harsh transition and that there will be some who do those things just like they did during the Civil War here, but I do not think that we will all suddenly turn into barbarian hordes ravishing, murdering and looting our fellow Americans until there's no one left standing.  I just don't see it.

I understand what your grandparents went through in Germany.  My great-grandparents went through the same thing during the Civil War in the Ozarks.  It was a terrible time.  But they and most of their neighbors survived and went on (otherwise I wouldn't be here to tell their tale).

I'm certain that the horrors they saw and went through were TEOTWATKI, but of course it wasn't. They rebuilt. Most of their neighbors that survived rebuilt.  They helped each other as much as they could and they went on.  I strongly suspect that's what most of us will do too.

Linda

[Nicholas]

You can chill out all you want at the moment, there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn’t do anyone any good by getting into hysterics before anything has happened, but when the shit hits the fan, I guaran-dam-tee you, you will be far from chilled out.

And just remember that people lived happy and productive lives back then because post great depression/WWII, the human race has experienced unprecedented gains in energy output which is really what equates to everyone’s delusional/perpetual state of happiness. We’re about to face nothing that the humans race has ever experienced ever, for the first time the human race is going to go from having more and more energy to having less and less of it, I just find it hard to chill out when the facts are in front of me.

I think you are wrong, Nicholas.  We have rape and crime here in the US right now, always have had.  There have been rapes, murders. lootings throughout history and our own society is/has been no stranger to them throughout its 200+ year history.  The Civil War (especially along the border states) is but one example.  Yes, we are totally dependent on oil and fossil fuels right now, but this society existed for almost 100 years without those energy sources, and other societies existed for millennia without them too. 

I have no doubt that it will be a very harsh transition and that there will be some who do those things just like they did during the Civil War here, but I do not think that we will all suddenly turn into barbarian hordes ravishing, murdering and looting our fellow Americans until there's no one left standing.  I just don't see it.

I understand what your grandparents went through in Germany.  My great-grandparents went through the same thing during the Civil War in the Ozarks.  It was a terrible time.  But they and most of their neighbors survived and went on (otherwise I wouldn't be here to tell their tale).

I'm certain that the horrors they saw and went through were TEOTWATKI, but of course it wasn't. They rebuilt. Most of their neighbors that survived rebuilt.  They helped each other as much as they could and they went on.  I strongly suspect that's what most of us will do too.

Linda

I Could be totally wrong, but please just take a look at the one fact, that every generation that has come before us has always had the luxury of looking forward to higher energy usage, that is, if the want for more energy was needed then it was met. Ok, we are entering an age we're the want for more energy is getting out of control, the demand for energy right now is of an addiction quality, its just phenomenal how much energy is being used, but we are for the first time in human history entering an age where the energy we want will not be met, whats more, this comes at a time where we need it very very badly if we want to the current situation to remain the same.

You say, well, I don't quite agree with what your saying nicholas because evidently we do have rapes, and killings and kind of starving people within the US already, ok, I'm not disputing that, but what happens when the whole social fabric of society gets torn apart especially law enforcement, whats going to keep you immune from this when there isn't anyone to protect you from it anymore?

Ask yourself this? Are you or have you ever been a victim of rape, violence, killings and starvation? my guess is no, but this is what you might fall victim too come societal collapse when the system falls apart, this is why I cant chill out. Now you have to ask yourself one more question, that is, are you ready for and prepared for this stuff in the future, not physically. but mentally?

[Nicholas]

I'm certain that the horrors they saw and went through were TEOTWATKI, but of course it wasn't. They rebuilt. Most of their neighbors that survived rebuilt.  They helped each other as much as they could and they went on.  I strongly suspect that's what most of us will do too.

Linda

Ok Ok,

Again, the reason why they were able to rebuild and look forward to a brighter future was only because of their access to an abundance of  energy. Come the collapse of our industrial complex there will be no rebuilding.

In our state of that Art 21st century world, the US cant pull its finger out of its ass the rebuild New Orleans, then how the fuck is it going to rebuild after a full blown resource war? Short answer, they wont, Why? because there just won't be the energy around in order to do so.

[theozarker]

I Could be totally wrong, but please just take a look at the one fact, that every generation that has come before us has always had the luxury of looking forward to higher energy usage

No they didn't.  Up until the invention of the steam engine or until oil was discovered and began to be produced on any scale, our forefathers had little concept of energy other than what they could do with their own hands or animal power.  And still they had cities and countries and even a few empires.

that is, if the want for more energy was needed then it was met. Ok, we are entering an age we're the want for more energy is getting out of control, the demand for energy right now is of an addiction quality, its just phenomenal how much energy is being used, but we are for the first time in human history entering an age where the energy we want will not be met, whats more, this comes at a time where we need it very very badly if we want to the current situation to remain the same.

Yes, and what I'm saying is, that's only been true for a couple of generations - even here in the U.S.  Our history has been one of mostly human and animal power until the mid 1800's.

You say, well, I don't quite agree with what your saying nicholas because evidently we do have rapes, and killings and kind of starving people within the US already, ok, I'm not disputing that, but what happens when the whole social fabric of society gets torn apart especially law enforcement, whats going to keep you immune from this when there isn't anyone to protect you from it anymore?

I think you're mistaking the social fabric for the window dressing we've glossed it over with on a superficial level.  The social fabric is not a physical thing dependent on a plenitude of oil.  The social fabric is made up the moral underpinnings of our individual lives. (And I'm not talking here about religious beliefs, although they make up part of that).  As a whole, I don't see our society as geared to the mad-max type of morality.  Our government, yeah.  Ordinary people, no.  And law enforcement, even the military, for the most part are made up of the same ordinary people the rest of society is.  They will certainly have their jobs cut out for them, and we may have to take up arms as individuals to help protect ourselves at times.  But I just don't see mad-max coming.

Ask yourself this? Are you or have you ever been a victim of rape, violence, killings and starvation? my guess is no, but this is what you might fall victim too come societal collapse when the system falls apart, this is why I cant chill out. Now you have to ask yourself one more question, that is, are you ready for and prepared for this stuff in the future, not physically. but mentally?

Rape, violence and killing, yes.  Starvation, no.  So yes, I am prepared for the future mentally, and physically as much as possible - what I have left of the future, at my age. And I expect it to be a very difficult future.   I just don't see the mad-max future you are predicting.

Linda

[Chip Haynes]

It's tough to convince people that the oil is running out when you have to yell over the noise of the traffic to make yourself heard. Since it can be difficult to offer empirical data to back up our position in the face of ever-increasing traffic and noise, our case gets about as much consideration as the next street-corner nut job who is convinced that the government put a radio in his head. I can see the mob's point of view.

Eventually, we will be proven right, but I don't expect to see anyone walk back and thank us for our efforts.

C'est la vie.