Life After the Oil Crash Forum
September 03, 2010, 05:30:26 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION: Contact Info for this forum is:

Matt Savinar
matt@lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

Make sure to check your moderator's blogs:
http://conflicteddoomer.wordpress.com/    http://dailyeconomicupdate.wordpress.com/
http://oldhorseman.livejournal.com/    http://youandyouroilthingmoseyingthroughcol.blogspot.com/
http://roccland.blogspot.com/    http://meetingcassandra.blogspot.com/   http://www.idleworm.com
http://www.megadoom911.blogspot.com/    http://www.paturnerart.com/
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Don't forget that unemployment in the underground economy is sky high also  (Read 2259 times)
JurisDoctorOfDoom
Member of the Illumi-naughty
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 8291



View Profile WWW
« on: January 26, 2010, 08:35:23 PM »

So we all know that wages are down, hours are down, unemployment is up and a lot more than we're being told. But something I hadn't thought about too much is the degree to which the underground economy has collapsed in step with the above board economy. Hypothetical example: let's say I have about $200 of landscaping to do. Now maybe in better times I pay my friend the carpenter who used to do landscaping about $200 in cash to do the job. He probably doesn't report that to the IRS  as landscaping is not his job, in fact he probably doesn't even think it is something he would need to report. And I'm not even sure if I would need to report it either (1099 maybe?) Anyhow, point is that $200 job would be an example of the undeground economy. Now that things have gone to crap, I'm far more likely to do it myself so that means he doesn't get the $200 in underground cash.

Here's a 2005 article from Mish that covers this in much more detail, just as relevant if not more so today than in 2005

Quote
Androcles (Andy) is a poster on one of the stock message boards that I run. He is, in fact, a frequent thorn in my side. Unlike others who think hyperinflation is coming in conjunction with a housing crash (something I think has been successfully rebutted more times than I want to discuss), Androcles argues that the economy is stronger than anyone thinks on account of the underground economy, and that there will be no housing bust because of that. Let’s tune in to what Androcles is saying:
“In America right now, there are millions of workers doing more than one job (receiving some form of compensation); examples: firemen, special-duty cops, lifeguards moonlighting as bartenders, computer techs repairing PCs in their spare time. Heck, Mish does several himself: full-time consultant, photographer who sells his work to magazines, and blogger who gets paid sales commissions. Does this mean that Mish is one worker or three? I’d say one. Some would say two…or even three.

“Millions of undocumented aliens are driving taxis, selling newspapers, pumping gas, digging ditches, picking grapes, driving trucks, writing code for software startups, etc. Do you count these workers as members of the labor force? Not if they work off the books, as most do to avoid being deported.

“In other words, there is no way you can accurately count either the employed or unemployed in America. All I can say is…”look around you.” Haven’t you noticed the large numbers of Asians, Latinos, and Eastern Europeans doing the work Americans won’t do? Our country is overrun with immigrants from all corners of the planet. They all have a job. Why? Because they’d starve if they didn’t. I don’t see any starving people walking the streets of Boston.

“I still maintain that the labor force numbers in America are understated due to the millions who work off the books or in activities that are never reported to the government. The underground economy in this country is bigger than ever. Accordingly, the unemployment rate is overstated, because the government is using the wrong denominator in its calculations.”

The Underground Economy: Mish’s Reply

Following is my reply to Andy:

Andy, that was an excellent, thought-provoking post and well deserving of recs.
You are, of course, correct about lots of things, but I disagree with your bottom line.

Yes, there are tens of thousands of undocumented workers, many of them illegal aliens, more or less adding to the economy in varying ways (or taking jobs from U.S. workers, if looked at in another way). But some stats do not lie, either, such as the number of weeks people average on unemployment. Nor do unemployment stats count the “underemployed,” such as those with degrees in engineering working at Wal-Mart.

Eventually, people have to take something. “Eventually” in this case is when benefits run out. In the meantime, debt keeps piling up, and up, and up. In a normal recovery, debt is paid off. In this recovery, savings have fallen to zero, private sector employment is negative (actually, I think it finally went positive a month or two ago), and even if you think it is understated, the fact remains that it is pathetic.

The key statistics are these:
1) How much deeper in debt everyone is
2) How little of the excesses were wiped out by the last recession
3) How we keep losing manufacturing jobs but gaining jobs at retail places such as Wal-Mart

By now, it should be obvious to everyone that this economy is in “recovery” and will only stay in recovery as long as housing is strong. Close to 40% of the job creation in this recovery is directly related to housing. Yet in spite of mammoth increases in the numbers of houses and associated construction jobs, job creation has paled. Now, I realize you dispute that. But unemployment numbers have only dropped because the participation rate has dropped. That is yet another problem with this recovery. A falling participation rate in a recovery is nonsense.

Then again, it seems you might be suggesting that the falling participation rate is wrong. Let’s assume for a minute that you are correct. The question is, where to from here? Does this recovery continue until everyone owns three houses? Does it even make sense to include illegal aliens in the participation rate in the first place? What happens when everyone owns three houses? Is it meaningless to you that only 12-14% of the people can afford a house in California? Perhaps you think the answer is “0% down,” that that makes things affordable. If so, you sound like all the rest of the cheerleaders. But please, let’s look ahead. What is the next step when we have declining real wages and affordability based on 0% down? Is the next step in affordability negative 25% down? In other words, unless wages pick up, and pick up substantially, there will be no new marginal buyers except by dropping lending standards. Do you not think lending standards are dropping like a rock? Foreclosures in many areas are skyrocketing.

Let’s return to debt levels. People are getting by in spite of falling wages, in spite of decreasing benefits, in spite of rising gasoline prices, in spite of higher heating and cooling bills, and in spite of higher property taxes — for one reason only: People are just about eating their houses. There has been round after round after round of cash-out refis supporting consumption. The savings rate has fallen to zero, and debt is rocketing.

The Underground Economy: The World’s Biggest Ponzi Scheme

This entire house of cards rests on two things:
1) Rising property values
2) Very high real estate sales

If either of those falls, it is all over. In fact, this mess is the world’s biggest Ponzi scheme to date. Actually, I can shorten the above two points to one, if you like: As soon as the credit bubble stops expanding, kiss this economy goodbye.
The Fed has unleashed a monster. That monster is a housing/credit bubble far bigger than any in history. People are buying second and even third homes. Greenspan is even worrying about “froth.” As you know, I have no respect for Greenspan, but one can usually tell what is on his mind. In this case, it is what to do about the housing bubble. In 2-3 years (or perhaps sooner), I believe the Fed will be praying to start another property bubble.

For the life of me, I cannot see how you think this is all sustainable:

· Housing prices enormously above rental values

· 0% savings

· Falling real wages

· Speculation in Florida, California, Las Vegas, Chicago, Boston, and numerous other places

· Condos being bought sight unseen

· Outsourcing and layoffs
Bear in mind that I do think the United States will survive all of this. In the long term, I think we will pass the economic torch over to China, but I doubt that will happen in our lifetime. The United Kingdom did not vanish when it passed the torch to the United States, and as best as I can tell, Spain is still on the map, in spite of the sinking of the Spanish Armada. So as bearish as I sound sometimes, I am not calling for the end of the world or the United States.

What I am calling for is a great deal of pain and soul-searching and correction of obvious malinvestments when anyone who can breathe qualifies for a 0% down, no-doc loan on properties that have risen 100% in three years while real wages have shrunk.

By the way, I am not sure if I have one job or three jobs or even five jobs, and those curious about my photography might wish to take a peek at Mish’s Photography. Now, photography might be one of my businesses, but “blog advertising” surely is not. Since my blog’s inception back in February, I have raked in a grand total of $66 (in credits) from site advertising. I have not even received a check yet. Thus, I would be hard pressed to call blogging a job.

On the other hand, I have a strong feeling there are relatively large numbers of people attempting to sell stuff on eBay who are struggling to make ends meet, yet for the point of the household survey consider themselves employed. Thus, while I am inclined to agree with you that all is not what it seems with the participation rate, I also propose that perhaps all is not what it seems with the participation rate! Think about that for a second. How many are attempting to sell stuff on eBay, attempting to make a living at multilevel marketing, starting businesses that are doomed to fail (etc., etc., etc.), and call themselves “employed”? Take me for example. You want to count me once. How many times have I been counted? I don’t know, do you?
No doubt, many people are working a second or a third job. You want to count them each once. How many times were they counted? For someone working two jobs, I have a hard time thinking he or she was not counted at least once. On the other hand, how many people are counted as having a job when all they have is $66 coming in from blog advertising? Who knows?

Thus, your theory on the participation rate works both ways. Regardless of what it is, however, the very second housing breaks down, there is going to be a massive revelation on what is sustainable going forward.

For now, I am willing to accept much of what you have said simply because the “underground economy” — in conjunction with loose credit standards and the ability to treat one’s house as an ATM — is the only plausible explanation for the resilience of this economy. The key question is, what happens going forward? I think we are about to find out…and I think the results will not be pretty.

Regards,
Mike Shedlock ~ “Mish”
August 17, 2005

Source: http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/the-underground-economy-a-discussion-with-androcles/
Logged

Possum
Forum Supporter I
Full Member
***
Posts: 230


Upside down!


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 09:29:45 PM »

Well, my little anecdotal evidence:  I fired my lawn guy about 6 months ago, as did most of the people in my hood.  I know he was underground because he offered a "discount for cash."  I liked the guy and he was fairly reasonable but I couldn't handle the $75 per month with the uncertainty in the economy.  I haven't seen him around lately and assume he's moved on to greener pastures if there are any.  I do my own lawn now, a recurrent theme around these parts.
Logged
Colonel Coconut
Full Member
***
Posts: 211


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 09:34:38 PM »

I have noticed something similar here in SF as day laborers that congregate at various places early in the a.m. are still standing around at noon. Not too long most of these people would have been out working by noon.

Or maybe there are more people who need to stand at the paint store at Divisadero and Oak or down on Army St. hoping to land a days worth of work. paid in cash of course.

Or both.


It does appear that the day labor market here is really tight now. I do get the impression that the various contractors just don't have work for these people anymore.
Logged
Zappalives
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1017


Promo shot from my 1962 lounge act


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 09:36:37 PM »

JDD,

per IRS regs.....no 1099 required for invoices less than 600usd.

Carry on underground dudes and dudettes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Logged
motherearth
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1368


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 09:51:40 PM »

Around here, most people work a second job, especially the farmers.
TRaditionally, their wives worked for pennies but got insurance for the family.

Why do they have a second job now?
To make ends meet.
So, no second job, no complete circle...bills get late, stuff goes by the wayside.

The fact that there is such a huge underground economy is scary as hell whether it is counted as one worker or three.
When we lost the capacity to make a decent living on one wage, we lost the war.
Logged

"Prepare for wicked acceleration"  Ik
BlueOwl
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4709



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 09:52:33 PM »

On the plus side, when every 400 horse-power engine starves to death for lack of gas or diesel, that's, what, 1200 people-power?  More?

Got a comfortable harness and sturdy boots?



Logged

"Don’t focus on the one guy who hates you. You don’t go to the park and set your picnic down next to the only pile of dog shit."
---9:41 AM Jun 28th  via ShitMyDadSays.com
EyesWideOpen
Forum Supporter I
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6704


Location: Scotland


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 10:01:16 PM »

I'm seeing the same thing as the Col. My area had a growing Hispanic community and a lot of the men were day labourers. At least a third of my neighbours were Hispanic.

But they've left town-many to return to Guatemala and Mexico. Of the ones who've stayed and are day labourers, they are waiting at the pick-up lots far longer into the day than before.

The construction guys I know are hiring family if at all, the homeowners are cleaning their own gutters.
Logged

Going into this with eyes wide open
hamlet_jones
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 73


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 11:41:30 PM »

The underground economy is tits-up! 

Many of my friends are contractors in our country's "black market" economy.
Apart from their wits, they have no safety nets. It's like the much of the
trade that has been shut down in the GOM. They're off the books, so they don't
exists, and thus BP doesn't owe them shit. The same situation exists for small
contractors, in that they are invisible to the mainstream bellwethers for economic health.

I would estimate private contractors are 70% idle. There's only so many times
you can clean out your file cabinets and wipe down your tools before you unplug
the alarm clock and pull up the covers. It's to the point that you have to take a number
and wait in line for a chance to shovel ripe shit.

Right now, more than two-thirds of my income is derived from Obama's
shovel-ready stimulus, back-to-school programs,  & unemployment bailouts.

TWO THIRDS!

HOLY FUCK!

Brace for impact people!

 



Logged
roccman
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4007


Go read Rule 7


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2010, 12:33:59 AM »

The underground economy is tits-up! 

TWO THIRDS!

HOLY FUCK!

Brace for impact people!

yep - 500MPH into a brick wall - a fast crash is ordained - the stringpullers see depopulating the planet a mere speed hump.
Logged

Nah, only a conspiracy theorist would think governments are shutting down the economy, as a back door way of dealing with PO. No-one saw this coming. It just "happened" through sheer, bureaucratic inertia, in which case the charge is one of incompetence.   - Slow Dazzle

www.dieoff.org
booklvr777
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1043


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 12:36:42 AM »

It's very hard to make any extra money "under the table" or otherwise now.  I think back, 30 years ago, when I was a young mom at home with my little girl, and I used to babysit for another little girl for the "enormous" sum of $20 a week.  This agreement was between the other mom and me--I had no "license" (didn't need one) and paid no fees to the state for "allowing" me to watch another woman's child while she worked part time.  This was one mom to another--she met me, liked me, and trusted me to watch her child.  She didn't need the State to proclaim me capable--she had the brains and instincts to see that I was a trustworthy individual.  And she got a very good deal at $20.  Now, you have to jump through hoops, pay fees, and charge exhorbitant prices to be able to babysit and, in my opinion, everybody loses.  Because we're all too "stupid" to be able to figure these things out for ourselves (i.e., who to trust to babysit) so the .gov has to step in and regulate it for us.
I'm not saying people shouldn't pay taxes, but if you just want to make a little extra "something" on the side, it's getting harder and harder to do so.
Logged

Don't mess wit' da grandmas!
Ellie
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1598


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 09:23:29 AM »

Another aspect of this is the new Paypal IRS reporting requirement which will kick in for tax year 2011.

A lot of people who were managing to squeak out a living on eBay are going to figure out that the time and effort just don't math out when the government starts sticking their big greedy hand into the pot.

What is going to happen is that Paypal is required to report to the IRS any account that has 200 transactions or more AND $20,000 in transactions or more. Now that latter figure may sound like a lot, but a lot of eBay sellers may spend well over half that on merchandise and other expenses, including shipping costs. So you could easily be talking about someone who is netting only about $500 a month or so (or even significantly less).

Now if that person were netting that small an amount, and didn't have other income, in the end they might not have to pay taxes, but they would still have to provide all of their paperwork, keep all sorts of records, etc., which could make it just ridiculously burdensome for that small a return.

And for the people supplementing their income, it's even worse because a lot of them make enough at their day jobs that they already pay a significant amount in taxes, and have been counting on the fact that there was no reporting requirement for Paypal. These people were making up for lost income from spouses, their own cut hours or wages, or just a day job which never did pay them enough to live on. Now they won't be able to take the chance.

I have my guess as to what this is going to do to eBay as a whole, as well...
Logged

What if I told you that, somewhere on this island, there is a very large box and whatever you imagined, whatever you wanted to be in it when you opened that box, there it would be? What would you say about that, John?
Doomsteader
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 756



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 10:28:20 AM »

 Because we're all too "stupid" to be able to figure these things out for ourselves (i.e., who to trust to babysit) so the .gov has to step in and regulate it for us.
In many cases, it's not even the .gov doing this stuff on it's own initiative, but responding to calls, lobbying and petitioning
from folks who are ALREADY doing [whatever] and simply want to keep out any competition by throwing up as many barriers to entry as they can.  In many cases "licensing" is just a form of protectionism, under the guise of govt regulation and "safety".
Logged
spring978
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 680


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2010, 10:38:08 AM »

2 years ago my oldest son often did contruction grunt work for his youth pastor and the same kind of work for our nighbor the plumber.  Now both guys have more young adults needing money and willing to help out and a whole lot less work.

Logged
paland
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2855



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2010, 11:51:50 AM »

Another aspect of this is the new Paypal IRS reporting requirement which will kick in for tax year 2011.

A lot of people who were managing to squeak out a living on eBay are going to figure out that the time and effort just don't math out when the government starts sticking their big greedy hand into the pot.

I have my guess as to what this is going to do to eBay as a whole, as well...

eBay kind of screwed themselves lately by now charging a full 9% for all transactions when it used to be 3.5%.  The profit margin is much smaller now so the math really doesnt work out too well anymore.
Logged
Bill from Pennsylvania
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1322


“I would like my life back." ..... former BP CEO


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2010, 11:58:17 AM »

With the selling and paypal fees, Ebay has ensured Craigslist's continued growth and success.
I highly recommend www.craiglook.com as you can use it to search all of the craigslist listings nationwide in one shot.
Logged

Never gonna use oil up,
Never gonna power it down,
Never gonna conserve it and preserve you
Never gonna let the DOW die,
Never gonna say "don't buy,"
Never gonna release swine flu and hurt you
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!