What would you do?

[Grim]

Here is the situation - I'm curious what you guys would do.

I currently live in a nice townhouse on a lake.  I have a very low mortgage of about $680 a month and almost no debt.  I refinanced about 6 months ago to take advantage of lower interest rates and I only owe about $87,000 on the house.  Market value (realistically) is probably about $165,000.  My long time girlfriend and I were recently married, she is of a like mindset as me about peak oil and SHTF issues.  We have preps already (guns, ammo, tons of dehydrated food, fuel, etc.).  On our first try after we got married, we managed to get pregnant, expecting our little boy in March (we are really excited).  So we want to move because our current townhouse doesn't really have enough room for visiting parents (only 2 bedrooms).  We found a property south of the city that we fell in love with.  It has 4 acres, and part of the property boundary is defined by a significant stream/creek.  It is well wooded, in an older community at the end of a cul-de-sac with only a few other houses.  No cookie-cutter developments would be going up nearby.  For our self-sufficiency plans it meets all of the requirements.  Huge basement with tons of storage, secluded, yet we can still make the commute to the city (about 30 minutes).  The list price is about $330,000 but its been on the market for nearly 9 months.  I've already decided that there is no way I want to make an offer unless I have cash in hand from the sale of my current place in order to make a significant down-payment.  I figure that we might be able to get the seller to come down to the $290-300,000 range perhaps.

So I'd be going from a $680/mo. mortgage in a house that has no real utility in a post SHTF scenario to a $1700/mo. mortgage in what I think would be a near ideal place (while still allowing me to work in the city).  I make a good wage at work ($95,000/yr.) and my job seems stable enough.  My wife makes about $35,000 a year and has worked at the same stable job for 20 years.  I love my job, and think I'll be doing it for 20 more years (assuming the economy lasts that long) so I'm not selling all my possessions and moving to Idaho (despite the temptation).  We have no debt other than the outstanding balance on our current mortgage. 

So I guess my question is - is it worth undertaking a bit more financial risk to better position my family against collapse?  My thought is this - last year the country was (by all accounts) just a couple days from complete financial meltdown.  Financial collapse over a period of a couple days would seem to indicate to me that foreclosures and evictions and things like that would probably not happen.  Who would have the resources to affect those things in a real crisis situation?  So should I be thinking that it is better to be where I want to be, with the preps on hand, as opposed to feeling vulnerable here with a low mortgage?

I'm trying to apply real world logic to this situation and not get caught up in any hysteria.  While I think collapse is coming, I'm wanting to ride this out until it happens, THEN batten down the hatches and ride it out.  This property seems as ideal a balance between the two methods of thinking that I can figure out.

What do you think?  Comments and advise are appreciated.

Grim

[MEA]

I'd move.

[madison]

I would not move.

That mortgage sounds horribly expensive.  I'd be frightened of it.  Plus, two incomes would be needed.  I personally, as a former Preschool Director with a degree in Child Development, do NOT feel infants should be in institutional care in a child care setting.  Even home daycares are inappropriate for infants and toddlers.  In fact, I think they can be dangerous to their health.  But children are adaptable, and flexible, and they CAN survive and thrive, I just don't think it's optimal.  My own went into care at 2 years old.  However, while I sacrificed nearly everything of value to stay home with my baby, I don't regret that time at all.  Jobs come and go, homes come and go, but an infants first few years only come once. 

Children do not NEED a large house.  It is simply NICE to have space.  Be wary of falling into the trap of "oh, we need x, y and z for the baby".  They need breastmilk, clothing and diapers and lots of love.  And health insurance if you can afford it, that's the expensive part.  Plus day care, yikes.

My advice would be to cut expenses right now so your wife does not HAVE to work if she doesn't want to after the baby is born.  Stay in your condo and cut expenses now.  Having an infant in childcare is horribly expensive, and not only financially.  Medically, infants in childcare are sick nearly constantly, and require numerous doctor visits.  Formula-fed infants are more sickly and less intellegent.   Taking time off from work to care for sick infants puts your job at risk (I've lost a couple that way, though no one will come out and say that for fear of getting sued).  Employers do NOT like working parents, and you WILL be discriminated against.  Formula costs money.  Working with an infant at home makes parents tired, which leads to more expenses such as eating out because everyone is too tired to cook.  I would think it is better to take a couple years off and have a happy, healthy and inexpensive baby and I say this from experience and as a single mom to a special needs child who has been there and done that. 

Yes, if TSHTF, you'll likely be p*ssed at having not moved, and not having that perfect property.  However, if things are truly in collapse, there'll be other living options available eventually, like relocating to an abandoned/empty home where there are no heirs or assigns. If we are in a catastrophic collapse, staying put and looking like you own nothing might be the best bet - then take your pick of homes when they die-off has begun. 

I'd stay put, save money, stay home with the baby and save up for a down while researching other properties that would serve equally well as this one.

[pamela]

totally agree with Madison.
take your time, a new baby won't care about the house for years to come! Also, have visitors stay at motel or something.
Oh, congratulations on what sounds to me like a wonderful family. Remember to be thankful.

also, IF, you could find a place that you could pay for outright without going into debt, then I'd consider it.
no debt. Debt bad. 

[madison]

Oh, and co-sleep.  

Babies do NOT need their own rooms until they are preschoolers with tons of toys that you step on in the dark on the way to the bathroom.

I know I'll get flack for this, but babies belong with their parents, not shut in cages in separate rooms.  It's not natural.

Plus, if you are a true doomer, you should WANT a successful breastfeeding relationship.  Co-sleeping and nighttime nursing facilitates that, especially if your wife returns to work during the day.  Putting the baby in a separate room while trying to nurse is way too much work.  Lying down nursing while half asleap makes everyone happier - you both get more sleep, and babe gets comfort, security and milk to grow strong and healthy. There are ways to safely co-sleep and I'd be very happy to direct you to some websites and books.  

Actually, here you go:
www.mothering.com and check out the forums

I'll see if I can find my books on how to co-sleep.  

Relying on formula to keep your baby alive in a crash sounds like a recipe for disaster.  That's just nuts.  Do whatever it takes to create success for your wife and baby to nurse.  I can't imagine the panic parents will feel in a hard crash realizing they had the capability of keeping their baby alive but they were too inconvenienced or inexperienced or truly unable to do so, and now have to watch their baby starve to death.  Horrific.  

Worse case scenario, if you get the expensive property, wife goes to work and doesn't nurse - be sure to get a milk goat.  Goats milk is the closest to human milk and infants CAN digest it usually without stomach problems (unlike cows milk which has much larger proteins that cannot be digested).

Good luck!

[pamela]

and again, I agree with Madison!
let the little thing sleep with you and it's mama, there is nothing better. We slept with our girls when they were babies, I nursed and it was so much better at night to be able to feel them close to me where I knew they were safe.
They had their own bed as well, but more often than not, they would sleep with their dad and me.
It's a wonderful experience, maybe talk to you wife about it.

[madison]

I decided after living through the Northridge earthquake in LA that my kids would sleep with me if and when I had some.

I had to run 25 yards through a pitch dark, swaying, shaking house to get to my little charge, and it scared the h*ll out of me. 

Having him that far away put him in danger, it put me in danger trying to get to him. 

Keep your kids close, especially if there are Zombies

[MEA]

Back again -- I was looked at it from the point of view of getting the land.

With the other considerations laid out, not so sure.

[Michelle]

think about security.
Are you safer out on your land? Would your wife/baby be safe there alone?

[atl_doomer]

Is there really no place to move that costs less that $300,000? If I made $95,000/yr, I would find some thing cheap and pay it off in a few years. How would one heat a $300,000 house (I am assuming it is large, could be wrong) post-peak anyway?
Maybe you could buy a small piece of land and put up a cabin, while staying where you are?

[Grim]

Thanks for all the responses. 

* And yeah..we are doing the co-sleeper thing!  

Well, we passed on the property.  We are looking around again - and while I'm very happy with our current financial situation and mortgage, it is all about balancing out with what the wife wants.  She is onboard with the whole doom thing.  She is a great stockpiler and loves to think outside of the box.  We just don't feel comfortable being this close to the city.  If things break down, they break down fast.  I had the good fortune to visit New Orleans within 48 hours of the hurricane, and I can tell you the feeling of doom and society hanging by a thread was palpable. 

I think we just need to adjust our sights, find a small property, keep the expenses in check, and learn to appreciate what we have.  We'll find a solution.  And I appreciate all the tips.  We are really looking forward to this first (and perhaps only) child.  We marvel at the process.  I just hope that my kid will have a good life, although I suspect that things are going to be far different for his generation than they were for mine.  We had it all, we took it all, we used it all.  The biggest misallocation of resources ever.  Bummer.

I'll keep ya'll informed.  When I find our (affordable) doomstead..I'll post pictures!

Grim

[madison]

Best wishes to you and yours, Grim    Enjoy every day!!!

[Grower]

I'm glad it worked out as it did. I agree with finding a place, but one that's not so expensive. Sometime this year, if you keep looking, you're bound to find some property that fits you -- things are only going to get worse. If your job is secure, you're in the driver's seat.

[Grim]

I'm glad it worked out as it did. I agree with finding a place, but one that's not so expensive. Sometime this year, if you keep looking, you're bound to find some property that fits you -- things are only going to get worse. If your job is secure, you're in the driver's seat.

I just wonder how stable my job is, particularly with regards to the new healthcare regulation and options (assuming some sort of healthcare reform is passed in the next few weeks).  I'm an air-ambulance pilot.  Things have been great for the past 20 years at our company (never laid anyone off) and I've worked there for 11 years and love the job.  I just wonder how long the relatively expensive utility of flying sick people around will last.  I don't know if anyone knows whether flights will expand with more people getting healthcare, or if they will contract with expenses and margins being lower.  Who knows...