Permaculture...who understands it?

[risenshine]

I think I understand the idea behind permaculture but I really can't translate that knowledge into actively doing it.  Give me a plot of land and I can map out and grow a gorgeous productive garden but I don't have a clue where to start with permaculture.


Is anyone using this growing system and if so do you have a good book recommendation?  And is it working well for you?
 I would love to learn more about this subject.
Thanks

[wildeyes]

I have Edible Forest Gardens Vol I & II and rate them as being really good. It's a bit easier for me to jump into than say Permaculture: A Designer's Manual because it just deals with plants. Mollison talks about everything and it's a little dizzying how much he goes over. it's like: well how the am i supposed to begin designing that?

i really like the idea of just coming up with a design you like and going for it (after the appropriate time of study and observation, of course). no system's gonna be "perfect," which i think is a pitfall in getting going with permacutlure. i sketched for months a zillion ideas before settling on the one i'm moving forward.

culture is always a matter of practice, so a perma-culture can only arise by diving in and practicing.

i've started by planting 42 hazelnuts in a honeycomb-labyrinth pattern. that will be interspersed with autumn olives (nitrogen fixer/berries) and saskatoons. Surrounding that chestnut and black cherry trees. it's kind of design-plant-design-plant at this stage...

[rbrgs]

The first step in permaculture is learning to listen to the land.  There is/was already an ecosystem there already, and the goal should be to change it as little as possible while also producing things of value to humans.  If the land was once a forest, then any kind of permanent agriculture has to work with that, not against it.  But the whole world didn't start out as forest, and more than the whole world is like the Nile delta. 

I don't think you can sit down and "design" permaculture.  It has to evolve.

[9anda1f]

Both wildeyes and rbrgs are correct.  The first task in designing a human partnership with a specific piece of land is to observe for at least one year.  Look for patterns of growth, types of plants and animals, how they interact with each other, how the seasons change the landscape.  Look to see the naturally occurring interactions between the various plant, animal, weather, geographical systems.  Only then can you really begin to concoct an initial design that builds on all you've observed.  As both said, initial design, as your ongoing observation will cause you to refine your design as you go along.

I must also say that Permaculture is much more that just a "growing system" and includes all aspects of human interaction with the earth.

Mollison's Permaculture: A Designers Manual is a great reference work.  However, the only way I was able to actually read the thing was in conjunction with taking the PDC.  Another great work is David Holmgren's Permaculture: Principles and Pathways beyond Sustainability, far more enjoyable to sit down and read.

[pamela]

The first step in permaculture is learning to listen to the land.  There is/was already an ecosystem there already, and the goal should be to change it as little as possible while also producing things of value to humans.  If the land was once a forest, then any kind of permanent agriculture has to work with that, not against it.  But the whole world didn't start out as forest, and more than the whole world is like the Nile delta. 

I don't think you can sit down and "design" permaculture.  It has to evolve.

I was going to recommend you as one of our permaculture experts RB!

[mischief]

My brother gave me a copy of "The permaculture home garden" by Linda Woodrow.

I have had to move my vegetable garden (for various reasons), from where it had been for the past 10 years using a pretty standard system although I did use some of the permaculture principles such as mulching the ground so the soil wasnt bare and didnt bake in the sun and basic companion palnting ...Basil with tomatoes...
The garden is now on what was lawn.

At first I had a hard time getting my head around how this system could work.
Its based on using a 4 metre (12 foot I think) domed chicken tractor to house 12 to 14 hens.By using them to clear the ground of weeds and bugs and fertilize the soil it saves you from having to dig the bed over and thus wreaking the worms' habitat and messing with the soil structure.
The hens stay on a spot for 2 weeks and then get moved onto the next site.You then rake over the bed and plant your vegetables,herbs and companion plants into the bed and mulch it.

So I sat down and did the first step which is to look at your land and see what you can apply to it.I found I could not fit a 4 metre dome but coud do a 3 metre(9ft) meaning I could have the legal limit of 6 hens on our property in the dome.
I drew out a scaled plan of the backyard and worked out where each bed could go.Basically you wind up with a middle bed and 6 satelite beds around it with a 500mm (just under 2foot) path. Sort of looks like a wheel spoke.
 Optimumlly you have 2 of these sets of beds so your hens are only on each spot twice per year which gives you usually plenty of time to get a crop or sometimes 2 in.
If you have room for only one then you move the hens somewhere else for the next 3 months.

The system calls for putting plants that you grew from seed (this is the part I'm having trouble with) that are 6 inches high at least.I need a greenhouse to do this properly.I have been cheating and buying plants to fill the gaps.
You plant them so that no 2 plants of the same family are planted together and in fill the gaps with things that grow faster so by the time say the tomatoe has grown big the lettuce has been and gone to the kitchen. Obviuosly you would plant corn as a block planting because it needs that to produce good cobs.

What  we have is  a central bed that did not get the hens put on as they should have been which is hard and nasty.
As it was going to be the herb gardne under the clothes line I thought we didnt need to put the hens on. I should have .I only scraped the turf off and planted the  herbs thinking they like it tough right? wrong. I should take them out and dig it over, cant put the hens on now cos the clothes line is already in place.

I have 2 beds planted out with the hens being moved on Sunday to the next station.I had to dig the first bed over as it still ahd weeds coming up, planted out and mulched with lawn clippings.They are doing quite well.
I have done sheet mulching on the beds before the hens go onto them so the grass is cooked off and cooled enough so that the worms will beattracted to the area,this is working well.I sheet mulch in advance and have just done the bed 2 over fromwhere they are at the moment.Actually sheet mulched quite a large area past the 3 mtre circle.Today I decided to plant a ground cover between the grapefruit treethat was transplanted 2 months ago and a baby tea plant.This area is right in front of the old steps up to the back lawn and has never been dug over so I was expecting it to be rock hard like the herb garden.It wasnt it was really soft and easy to dig and moist and full of worm holes. I was quite surprised with it.

Because this is the first year the hens are not getting to demolish the spent vegies etc that they will be in 6 months time so I am bring them dadelion greens etc..to make sure They get their greens
The system calls for trees to be planted around the circle of beds but I dont really have room to alot of trees here so I am going to have to rethingk that  bit for now.

It seems to be working well so far.Even if I am cheating abit.

[rbrgs]

Nice garden, but hardly permaculture.  It's not about annuals; that's the dead end humans have been headed down even since we domesticated wheat and tried to mae the whole world into the Nile delta.  (Spring floods kill all the vegetation and deposit a layer of fresh silt becomes till and add fertilizer...that's not permaculture unless you live in the flood plain.)

The heart of most permaculture systems is the trees.  Mature fruit and nut trees produce 5-10 times as many calories per square foot as annuals, and you don't need fossil fuels to grow them.

[mischief]

Oh sorry I didnt realise that I had to replant the whole worlds forest to make you happy.

For your information permaculture IS using the priniciples laid out by the originators to 1 feed your family 2.feed the soil you live on and 3 leave the land in  better condition than you found it.

You appear to be stuck on trees.And while the are vital for the planet they are not vital for me on a 1/4 acre plot.Yes I need some and yes I even have some certainly not as many as I did last year and yes I will be planting some more But they are Not what permaculture is about.

I dont have to use fossil fuels to do this , I do mow lawns for part of my living and recycle that resource that most mowers throw in the tip. Also another permaculture tip of use what you have available.

To quote Bill Mollison in this books forword:     The philosophy behind permaculture is one of working with, rather than agaiinst nature, of protracted and thouhgtful observation rather than protracted and thoughtless action; of looking at systems in all their functions rather than asking only one yield of them and to allow systems to demonsrtate their own evolutions.....I can only reccommend this book to all home gardeners who respect soil husbandry, nutrition and design. Bill Mollison

Now you were saying???

[mischief]

Oh I forgot to mention in my earlier spiel that in the two central beds she reccommends putting a pool there to reflect the winter sun amongst other reasons.
This system is probably good for tropical to temperate climates.

Foerst gardening is one system you might be able to use that but I think if you checked you find that most people are not in a positon to do so and by rubbishing other peoples efforts you put alot more people off any system that may work for them Im really surprised that you as a moderatot would bluntly do this.

I encourage people to 1.put a garden of any sort in then 2 use composting or worm farming to feed the soil rather than fertilizer.3 Mulch the soil so it doesnt bake or encourage weeds 4 companion plant either intercropping style or with herbs what works for them.5 Try to save their own seed so that hopefully theywill save heirloom seeds that have worked for genmerations and are not just designed for shipping. Thiso give them at some point a crop that has adapted to their climate and/ or micro climate they work inside of.
There ARE NO hard and fast rules of now you have to ....
There are no gurus only us guys having fun and getting fed!@!!!

The main ideal of permaculture is to use what you can of the ideas they give to improve the qyuality of your food the animals you live off as well as the land you live off.

 

[rbrgs]

The philosophy behind permaculture is one of working with, rather than agaiinst (sic) nature, of protracted and thouhgtful (sic) observation rather than protracted and thoughtless action; of looking at systems in all their functions rather than asking only one yield of them and to allow systems to demonsrtate (sic) their own evolutions

Read that again.  And think about it.  The EROEI of conventional gardens is very poor.  And you'll need to get over this whole "christian/heathen" thing if you're ever going to understand why "clear" land is seen as more civilized than forests.

If you want to have a garden, that's all to the good, but premaculture is permanent agriculture, and unless you live on a river delta with regular floods, annuals are neither permanent nor natural.

[wildeyes]

I would say that tree-cropping is not something that has to be saved for massive plots. It can be a half acre, a quarter acre easily.

The real advantage I see in trees/perennial shrubs in terms of energy is that they establish a deep, and perrennial root system over many years. Because of this, they can continue to produce in greater and greater amounts over the years (reaching a steady maximum of course). This is only possible because they're able to draw nutrients up from the subsoil and bedrock. Thus after planting there's no need to engage in the backbreaking labor of cultivation and turning the ground.

I find it really disheartening that so many people interested in sustainability think it means we need to mimic the 1700s all over again. Not that there aren't things we can learn from that time, but all the labor and energy that goes into maintaining work horses to plow the fields to grow the corn to feed the horses to plow the fields to grow the corn is really unnecessary.

Planting trees for sustenance makes more sense. And you can integrate foraging animals into a tree-crop system for meat/eggs/whatever. Planting trees is easy. Plowing/Tilling is not.

[Jonathan_Byron]

Another important part of permaculture is stacking as many ecological functions in an area to support each other and to get higher utilization - permaculture areas sometimes have 6 or 7 different layers of different sized plants, and emphasizes polyculture along with perennials.   Also lots of emphasis on edges and microclimates, flow of wind, water, etc.   

[kathyprepper]

I love Gaias's Garden. I am in a permaculture study group right now and there is a whole lot to learn. I have a fruit tree orchard. Underneath I have planted tulips and daffodils in a ring to protect the young trees from burrowing pests, I am also inoculating a patch under each tree with Shaggy Maine mushrooms. In between I am planting comfrey to act as a mulch when cut down. The idea is to put in plants that serve a purpose and will return. Each plant should have a place in that particular ecosystem. I am also using a keyhole system for my tomatoes next year. They will be intercropped with marigolds and basil and heavily mulched with comfrey. I grow a lot of rhubarb which turns out to provide a good mulch too. I think it is important not to get too tied up in semantics and risk disenfranchising new gardeners, I have been been growing a lot of what I eat for 30 years and I am still a novice compared to others here. The main thing is too remember to look at a garden as a series of relationships of air to water to microbes to fungi to worms to roots to stems to vines to trees and on and on.

[rbrgs]

An example; this is a 1 1/4 acre plot that I hand cleared (of an invasive tree--waiawa, or strawberry guava) and planted last year:

Canopy of Ohia trees, 50-55 feet tall.  Only the large ones survived the waiawa, and they have no lower branches...generally 30' of bare trunks.

Edges planted to tall Bananas, with some Naranjillas (a huge, spiny eggplant relative) mixed in, some Bananas scattered throughout, around the piles of cut waiawi...it will take several years to rot, and would grow back without shade and competition).

Understory>COFFEE.  This is the whole point of the exercise, 225 or so Coffee trees growing in virgin forest with a 30% or so canopy.  I've added some crushed coral, but mostly, the leaf litter from the ohia trees will feed them.  Projected yields are 4000lbs/yr; profitable, even if I have to hire people to pick, provided the economy doesn't collapse before the trees get big enough (3-5 years)

Cacao and Tea and Cola Nuts; just a few of each.  They're in the same niche as Coffee.  I grew them from seed, and can grow more if it turns out that I can sell them.  Just how relocal are we going to get?

In thin spots, 5 Citrus trees and 3 Macadamia nuts.

6 different colored Hibiscuses, 2 Gardenias.

On the Ohia trees...Vanilla (which is an orchid), as well as a bunch or ornamental orchids and some anthuriums, 'cause I had some I could divide and they're pretty.

There are hapuu (tree ferns) scattered about; I planted orchids on some or them, too.

On the ground:  Taro, Dasheen, Nasturtiums, Tobacco, Desmodium (tropical analog of clover), Ti, Money Plant, Poha.  Two Kukui trees. one on each edge, 'cause they get so big.

I'm sure I've forgotten something.    

I've added some (200lbs) of crushed coral, and one bag of limestone.  When the coffee was first planted, I gave each tree a cup of chicken manure.  And I have to keep cutting the waiawi back.

For years, I watched the waiawi make fruit and the fruit flies eat most of it.  It's the best niche on the farm, and I wanted it for something other than weed trees.  And while my saw and loppers are hardly stone age tools, I didn't use a chain saw or any other power tools to do all this...just persistence and a bad attitude.

This isn't just theory for me; I've paid my dues in sweat and blood.....

[kathyprepper]

rbrgs- Do you have any idea how fascinating it is to read your posts? I am from western Mass and it is as though you live on a different planet. Obviously, I know that somebody plants coffee and bananas but it is a foreign as to me as if you I just found out you were the actual tooth fairy. So cool. Are you as intrigued by the idea that we can actually boil sap into syrup?