Health Care is a Bubble - the Manifesto

[Russ]

ps: just remembered: a GIGANTIC problem is end-of-life care.  Something on the
order of half of all health costs are incurred in the last month or two of life, taking
the form (often) of heroic keep-'em-breathing-at-ANY-cost "health care".  This goes to
cultural and psychological problems unique to (or specially expressed in) America, such
as a refusal to deal squarely and honestly with the reality of death.

I've always found it interesting to hear the arguments against euthanasia from doctors, their oath to "do no harm"...
... yet, we routinely take out elderly/dying pets to vets (doctors, right?) to have them put to sleep rather than suffer.

We often hear the phrase, "They wouldn't treat a dog like this", yet in this case dogs often are treated better than people.

[Rival]

It wouyld be funny if it were not so tragic.

People line up and point at the abuse and corruption in the current system. So what do they do? They propose we change the system. And what happens? The new system becomes ripe with abuse and corruption.

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
"Plus ce change plus ce la meme chose"

Its easy to delude yourself into thinking your new system will magically lead to a fantasy land where human nature will suddenly change and the nobility of character will prevail. This was the utopian dream of every socialist, every communist, every anarchist, and even those promoting democracy. The problem is not the system, it is the people. Until our natures are changed the die are already cast.

[alan2102]

It wouyld be funny if it were not so tragic.

People line up and point at the abuse and corruption in the current system. So what do they do? They propose we change the system. And what happens? The new system becomes ripe with abuse and corruption.

"It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
"Plus ce change plus ce la meme chose"

Its easy to delude yourself into thinking your new system will magically lead to a fantasy land where human nature will suddenly change and the nobility of character will prevail. This was the utopian dream of every socialist, every communist, every anarchist, and even those promoting democracy. The problem is not the system, it is the people. Until our natures are changed the die are already cast.

Rival, see post #29 (mine) at bottom of page 2, showing how the U.S.
spends over twice what most other developed countries spend on health
care, with zero benefit in terms of quality-adjusted life expectancy.  Obviously
this is NOT a problem of "human nature"; obviously the die are NOT already
cast in the way you mean it. Other countries can spend reasonable, non-ruinous
amounts on health care, and get the same (or even better) end results, i.e.
long relatively-healthy life expectancies. If the problem is "human nature", then
why the huge disparity between us and them?  They are humans with the
same evolved "nature",  too.

In a sense, the problem IS human nature: human nature AS FILTERED
THROUGH AND PROFOUNDLY MODIFIED BY culture, belief systems, memes,
values, social and political structures, etc., etc.

--

[Rival]

The difference is that we are trying to do something they are not: We are willing to extend life at any price. There is no question that it rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns, we are all mortal in the end.

An imaginary country could mobilize their entire economy based around the sole goal of extending life expectancies at the expense of every other endeavor. They would find their results not much better than ours.

[alan2102]

The difference is that we are trying to do something they are not: We are willing to extend life at any price.

Exactly. That's why it is not a matter of "human nature".

[cabacaba]

The difference is that we are trying to do something they are not: We are willing to extend life at any price. There is no question that it rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns, we are all mortal in the end.

An imaginary country could mobilize their entire economy based around the sole goal of extending life expectancies at the expense of every other endeavor. They would find their results not much better than ours.

Rival is correct.. 

But, it is a waste of time to debate psychopathic communists/fascist ...

[Earl the Girl]

End of life costs amount to about 27% of the 327 billion dollar Medicare budget, that’s $100,440,000,000. 

Comparatively, the health care industry spends $400,000,000,000  on competitive marketing and lobbying.  $500,000,000,000  is spend on medical practices that are not clinically sound and do not improve the health of patient, $150,000,000,000 is expended on medical liability.  That brings the total monies not spent directly on patient care to $1,050,000,000,000.

$100,440,000,000 in end of life costs vs.
$1,050,000,000,000 in monies not spent on patient care

Although, in many cases, our end of life practices in the United States are egregious infractions against basic human decency, let’s please not lose sight of the larger picture.  I’m very hopeful that we can continue having a productive discussion about health care, especially if readers can carefully research their responses (again, I’m happy to share my sources.  Anyway, these numbers are not hard to find – health care is widely researched and reported on.)

I’m curious about how much value readers think might be lost in the event of the bubble burst, and what signs we might look for before it goes, and what the timing might be on something like this.  Let’s get hypothetical!

[TheDignityofStruggle]

Rival, you are in my top five.   

[Hendrek]

The difference is that we are trying to do something they are not: We are willing to extend life at any price. There is no question that it rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns, we are all mortal in the end.

An imaginary country could mobilize their entire economy based around the sole goal of extending life expectancies at the expense of every other endeavor. They would find their results not much better than ours.

Oh, not necessarily.  Extending life expectancy via throwing more money at life support systems (as we attempt to do) would result in much the same outcome, yes. 

But going about addressing the causes of poor health would perhaps go much further.  If a country could mobilize their entire economy based around the goal of healthy living, then they would likely find their results much better than ours, and probably would find themselves not needing to use their entire economy to do so.

[alan2102]

The difference is that we are trying to do something they are not: We are willing to extend life at any price. There is no question that it rapidly reaches a point of diminishing returns, we are all mortal in the end.

An imaginary country could mobilize their entire economy based around the sole goal of extending life expectancies at the expense of every other endeavor. They would find their results not much better than ours.

Rival is correct.. 

But, it is a waste of time to debate psychopathic communists/fascist ...

Now see here! Us psychopathic communist/fascists need love too, you know!   

kidding aside:

How is Rival correct that the fantastically higher U.S. expenditure per capita on health
care is due to (the inevitable result of) human nature?