Feeling alienated on veterans day

[max_power]

I feel like such a tool as everybody is thanking and gushing over veterans and all I can think of is wars (which are all total rackets to benefit the richest and sacrifice people to the gods of evil) would not be possible if nobody showed up for them. Thanks but no thanks for your "service" veterans.

was there really a war fought for freedom in American history? Maybe you could argue for the revolutionary war.
 and none of those veterans are alive and if they were they would probably be prosecuted for terrorism.

There is hardly anybody that i could talk about this with, I just have to keep my mouth shut and humor everybody.

[Calles]

You're obviously not from a military family

[max_power]

My great grandpa was a soldier in world war I and my great grandma a nurse in world I. My great uncle was  a soldier in the korean war and my great aunt a lab tech in the korean war.My grandpa was in pattons 3rd army in world war II. My other grandapa was in the british navy during world war II (this grandpa had similar views on war as me). My dad was in the navy during vietnam. My uncle was in the coast guard in vietnam, captured and severely tortured and escaped only to have the government deny him any help because he was involved in black ops. my brother was in the army for desert storm and my other brother the air force. I was in ROTC in college but then declined to join the army by the time i graduated (i got medals for straight As in military science and field training exercises)

[zenobia]

Max -

Here's a couple of quotes for you to think about:

"It is hard sometimes for contemporary liberalism to envision war as not always evil, but as sometimes very necessary - and very necessarily brutal if great evil is to disappear."
Victor Davis Hanson

"War's Legitimate Object is More Perfect Peace."
William Tecumseh Sherman


Only a psychopath would WANT a war.  However, as VDH says above, sometimes war is necessary.  There are certain wonderful human attributes like greed, jealousy, anger, lust, etc. that, writ large, cause war.  What would you have the invaded do?  Lie down and take it?  For every terrorist, there is a victim.  What would you have them do? 

This is something that just about everyone in the military that I know struggles with - the concept of "Just" or "Unjust" war.   I have seen my husband and many of our dear friends struggle with this every day.  BUT there is great evil in the world and someone has to fight against it.  There are some really great books out there that you might read that cover this subject - why don't you educate yourself?  You could start with Michael Walzer's "Just and Unjust Wars: A Moral Argument with Historical Illustrations".  You could also move on to something like Victor Davis Hanson's "The Soul of Battle" (from where I took the quotes above).  Those are a good place to start.

To paint people who serve and who have served so cavalierly is sad, IMO.  You really have no idea of the personal sacrifices most of these people have made.  You have no concept of the sacrifices their families have made.  Not many people do, except for those who see it and deal with it every day.

The more sad thing, IMO, is that people think a "Thank You" one day a year is enough.  If people really wanted to thank servicemen and women, they could give their families left at home a hand, among other things.

[kathleen]

max, I was considering the same thoughts this morning. It's hard to know how to be respectful to the individuals who have gone through this service, but not to elevate the concept of war. We are in a situation where kids are joining the forces for economic reasons, not because of a deep seated belief in our causes. We are being primed to accept the notion of unending war and we need to consider long held beliefs in regard to what is acceptable. Those in the service are sacrificing... their lives, being with their families, sometimes their sanity. Is it for a noble cause or or are we just involved in resource wars at this point? There is nothing wrong or disrespectful to consider these issues.

[max_power]

Max -

Here's a couple of quotes for you to think about:

"It is hard sometimes for contemporary liberalism to envision war as not always evil, but as sometimes very necessary - and very necessarily brutal if great evil is to disappear."
Victor Davis Hanson

"War's Legitimate Object is More Perfect Peace."
William Tecumseh Sherman


Only a psychopath would WANT a war.  However, as VDH says above, sometimes war is necessary.  There are certain wonderful human attributes like greed, jealousy, anger, lust, etc. that, writ large, cause war.  What would you have the invaded do?  Lie down and take it?  For every terrorist, there is a victim.  What would you have them do? 

This is something that just about everyone in the military that I know struggles with - the concept of "Just" or "Unjust" war.   I have seen my husband and many of our dear friends struggle with this every day.  BUT there is great evil in the world and someone has to fight against it.  There are some really great books out there that you might read that cover this subject - why don't you educate yourself?  You could start with Michael Walzer's "Just and Unjust Wars: A Moral Argument with Historical Illustrations".  You could also move on to something like Victor Davis Hanson's "The Soul of Battle" (from where I took the quotes above).  Those are a good place to start.

To paint people who serve and who have served so cavalierly is sad, IMO.  You really have no idea of the personal sacrifices most of these people have made.  You have no concept of the sacrifices their families have made.  Not many people do, except for those who see it and deal with it every day.

The more sad thing, IMO, is that people think a "Thank You" one day a year is enough.  If people really wanted to thank servicemen and women, they could give their families left at home a hand, among other things.

I realize all this, but when has the U.S. been invaded? maybe the war of 1812? If the military and U.S policies were structured like Switzerland I would be out flag waving and gushing over veterans today! (and i didn't "paint" anybody yet, but heres some paint: "I WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS!")

[zenobia]

Should we have left the British and French to fend for themselves against Hitler in WWII?  Should we have left France to fend for itself in WWI?

Should we have left Asia to fend for itself against the Japanese in WWII?

Should we have left US citizens at the mercy of the Barbary pirates?

How about those Bosnians?

Yes, there have been many, many instances where the US went to war for craven reasons.  Wars are fought for evil purposes. 

However, it isn't black and white - it isn't all or nothing.  Wars are also fought for high ideals.  And within "bad" wars are sometimes "good" reasons and "good" outcomes.


And the US is not Switzerland.

And you certainly did paint veterans as terrorists.

[ReddDogg]

max,

I understand where you are coming from.  But the Veterans I thank did not start the wars.  They did not want the wars.  But they were involved in a war, and they deserve respect.  Virtually every veteran or former service member I have met really beleive they are there protecting what is good in America, protecting the innocent, etc.  A small portion of bad apples has tainted our view on the barrel full of vets.

Also, if you go back to Vietnam, where my father served, it wasn't his choice at all.  Thanks to the draft, he was forced to go off to war, but once put down that path, his actions are worthy of me being proud.  My grandpa serving in WWII, same thing.  I have a brother in law that used the Army to get an education, and the timing ended up putting him in Iraq recently.  He is worthy of my thanks as well.

You need to disconnect the wars and why the powers that be started them from the men and women who served in the military and why they did so.

[max_power]

And you certainly did paint veterans as terrorists.

I did not paint them as terrorists. What I meant was, revolutionary war veterans would be considered terrorists by our modern society and fully prosecuted by the feds. I do not think they were terrorists at all. What is a terrorist anyway? someone who competes with the monopoly on violence?, somebody who doesnt have a shitload of reserve fiat to buy guided missiles and supersonic airplanes and media companies?

terrorism is a belief system just like any ism. I dont buy into it

[zenobia]

Thanks for explaining yourself more fully.

[ExRanger]

Max Power,
Speaking as a Vet and only for myself I really don't care if you are thankful for our service or not. I volunteered all the way down the line and I knew what I was getting in to. In fact to be honest, I LIKED IT. 
But you should at least be honest and acknowledge that there are plenty of people, organizations, country's out there that wish you harm and the only thing standing between  you and them are the members of the armed forces. Many things happen in dark nasty corners of the world that let you and your family lead a relatively peaceful life where you don't even have to think about these things if you don't care to. Count yourself as lucky that they are out there in the dark doing the countrys dirty work.

[Annihilatrix]

>>>
We owe our soldiers a war worth fighting

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2010244797_bruce11.html?prmid=op_ed
...
And how do troops halfway around the world protect the American people? "If the Afghan government falls to the Taliban," the president said, "that country will again be a base for terrorists who want to kill as many of our people as they possibly can."

That was the Bush-Cheney theory. But does it make any sense? Is it likely that if the Taliban came to power again, wanting to create an Islamic state again, that they would tolerate an al-Qaida beehive for the stinging of America, again? Is it likely that after 9/11, America would fail to attack such a base?<<<

[msegk]

Thank you for this thoughtful thread.  Especially you, Zenobia... this was exactly what I needed.

A young friend of mine was just deployed to South Korea from Fort Hood last week.  Today he is frothing at the mouth with hatred toward Obama, who he says blames Americans for 9/11.  As many of you, I no longer take a political side and look at the system from the outside looking in.   I asked him about his comment on facebook when thanking him for his service.  Now his Army buddies are pissed at me, even though I said twice that I am not an O fan.

I support our troops but fear for their equilibrium.

[Mr. Bones]

I feel like such a tool as everybody is thanking and gushing over veterans and all I can think of is wars (which are all total rackets to benefit the richest and sacrifice people to the gods of evil) would not be possible if nobody showed up for them. Thanks but no thanks for your "service" veterans.

was there really a war fought for freedom in American history? Maybe you could argue for the revolutionary war.
 and none of those veterans are alive and if they were they would probably be prosecuted for terrorism.

There is hardly anybody that i could talk about this with, I just have to keep my mouth shut and humor everybody.

You're not alone.  I feel the same way, Max.  This species will never evolve past our brutish primate ways.  We have the ability and intelligence to evolve, but with all of the murder and rape and pillaging and overpopulation and greed and lies and stupidity and soldiers who believe in something as ridiculous as nationalist propaganda...it'll never happen.  Never.  Don't look for it.

Grin and bear it like I do.

This is something that just about everyone in the military that I know struggles with - the concept of "Just" or "Unjust" war.   I have seen my husband and many of our dear friends struggle with this every day.  BUT there is great evil in the world and someone has to fight against it.

Yes.  Because everything is that black and white. 

America good.  Terrorists bad.
Israel good.  Palestine bad.
Christianity good.  Islam bad.

To paint people who serve and who have served so cavalierly is sad, IMO.  You really have no idea of the personal sacrifices most of these people have made.  You have no concept of the sacrifices their families have made.  Not many people do, except for those who see it and deal with it every day.

And do you have a clue as to what the citizens sacrifice every fucking day?

The more sad thing, IMO, is that people think a "Thank You" one day a year is enough.  If people really wanted to thank servicemen and women, they could give their families left at home a hand, among other things.

Thank a citizen.  He/she built your home, your water pipes, the streets you drive on, your everything.

max,

I understand where you are coming from.  But the Veterans I thank did not start the wars.  They did not want the wars.

They may have not started the wars, but they sure were complacent enough to go along with what their leaders told them to do.  I don't understand how someone can swallow war rhetoric hook, line and sinker and actually believe it is all about defending the homeland or defending freedom or whatever rah-rah bullshit reason the generals give these troops.  I cannot understand how these men willingly put their lives on the line and die for some rich cocksucker who is making a profit off of their deaths and the very war they are fighting in.  Pawns in a chess game; cannon fodder for the military industrial complex.  It's not about honor or dignity or any of that crap.  It is about money and resources and profit for the elite that wage these wars.

Thank you for this thoughtful thread.  Especially you, Zenobia... this was exactly what I needed.

A young friend of mine was just deployed to South Korea from Fort Hood last week.  Today he is frothing at the mouth with hatred toward Obama, who he says blames Americans for 9/11.  As many of you, I no longer take a political side and look at the system from the outside looking in.   I asked him about his comment on facebook when thanking him for his service.  Now his Army buddies are pissed at me, even though I said twice that I am not an O fan.

I support our troops but fear for their equilibrium.

He sounds completely brainwashed.

[risenshine]

War is Hell who wants it?!  I'm not happy with our country/Government.  But I support the Men and women who go. There is no draft and yet they go.  Why?  Because they still believe in our country and freedom!  My husband went because he wanted to serve his country and he did, he gets tears in his eyes when he talks about it. Following him around the country for 20 years I realized one thing, for the vast majority they are GOOD people and there is nothing I'd rather see than a military man coming to my aid in a time of crisis.  The men and women who serve ARE America, we must support them.  I don't know how or why but WE the PEOPLE let TPTB take over!  Its high time to kick their asses OUT!