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Author Topic: community-scale concentrating solar power  (Read 344 times)
Koon King
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« on: November 06, 2009, 04:21:22 AM »

Someone posted about community-scale concentrating solar power this week and now I can't find the link. There's a new system available for $75,000.  Thanks in advance.

Note: it's a dish with a Sterling engine.

Follow-up comment:
I found the original forum link here with comments: http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,55985.0.html
YouTube video: http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,55985.0.html
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 06:55:02 AM by Koon King » Logged
Phildo
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2009, 02:02:06 AM »

Someone posted about community-scale concentrating solar power this week and now I can't find the link. There's a new system available for $75,000.  Thanks in advance.

Note: it's a dish with a Sterling engine.

Follow-up comment:
I found the original forum link here with comments: http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,55985.0.html
YouTube video: http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,55985.0.html



Yes, it looks interesting as part of mix for a community based system. 

Should we go into details?

Do you know where the $75000 figure came from?  Not saying it is not correct, but EE Times covered these a  couple of years ago and quoted a figure of $150,000.  I have not seen any actual quotes from the manufacturer, or even if they are available for direct sale?

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Koon King
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2009, 03:04:55 AM »

I wrote the company and they said they're only selling to large utilities.

There are other similar but smaller-scale brands on the market.
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Phildo
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2009, 09:05:04 AM »

I wrote the company and they said they're only selling to large utilities.

There are other similar but smaller-scale brands on the market.

That makes sense on their "Only to Utilities" part -- product liability is a bitch.  I am not planning on selling any of my equipment, either.  Will just Open Source the designs, and folks can build stuff themselves if they want. 

We have chatted if the guys would like to build a Stirling Engine in class.  Not really rocket science.  We may or may not.  For my taste I like process heat available from the non-Stirling options -- usually Steam or Hot Oil.  It is handy for Hot Water, Space Heat, Distillation and Air Conditioning/Refrigeration.  You do not tend to get that with Stirling designs.

I would think if one were to do a Stirling as part of a community based system, it would be good to mix some Solar Thermal (e.g. steam) with some PV and some wind, and some biofuels for a wider use and more robust mix in the overall system. 





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Phildo
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2009, 02:42:56 PM »

I wrote the company and they said they're only selling to large utilities.

There are other similar but smaller-scale brands on the market.

Say Koon King --

Had a follow on question for you, if you do mind.

What would guess would be an "affordable" price on one these if something like this were on the market?  Not what you think someone might want to charge you -- like trying guess The Price Is Right -- but rather what would you as a buyer think was price you could afford for something like one of these?

Thanks.

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Koon King
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 12:59:14 AM »

No idea, Phildo.  I'm just looking for alternatives.  We know things are going to get more difficult, less power available, etc.  So what can we do to prepare?  I sure don't want to live without power.

If 100 families pitched in a few thousand dollars each, then it seems doable.  But is it the best choice?  Maybe it's not reliable long term and you risk investing too much into one technology.  I'm leaning toward a mix of lower cost alternatives.
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Phildo
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2009, 06:29:03 AM »

No idea, Phildo.  I'm just looking for alternatives.  We know things are going to get more difficult, less power available, etc.  So what can we do to prepare?  I sure don't want to live without power.

If 100 families pitched in a few thousand dollars each, then it seems doable.  But is it the best choice?  Maybe it's not reliable long term and you risk investing too much into one technology.  I'm leaning toward a mix of lower cost alternatives.

I would suggest starting the other way around.  At least while you are thinking through this at the beginning.  Rather than taking what it looks like someone may be "selling," you -- start with an, "I want . . . . " approach.  That way at least you sort of know where you want to be going with all this, up front. 

---------------

Like maybe I want: 

A power system that does not cost more that $xyz per household (or however you see doing this) involved. 

It should be able to serve between xx and yy households.

Each household should be able to get between xxx and yyyy kWh per (time unit -- a month?)

---------------------------

Some observations on "community" power systems (just musing this as typing) --

Considering where we are at and likely to be -- Also have to allow for "hard times" so that if 50% (or pick another number) lose their homes, move to live with others, or cannot pay the community for the power, you do not have to "cut them off," and can also operate with a smaller group without the group going under.

And the reverse of that is probably true as well -- you should probably be able to expand your system for new members or growing households.

Decide how much power each household needs or gets -- in advance.  Maybe declare that Hot Water, Heating, Air Conditioning, Stoves, Dryers (talking about electric) are or are not allowed on this system.  Maybe even electric cars.  Those are the "big" draws on a system like this.  A renewable system can be designed to handle all that, but it best declared as part of the design, up front.

Time of Use (TOU) is a big factor to consider.  If everyone wants power at the same time it may require a bigger capacity system to provide it all at once.  Also with renewable, it tends to vary production capacity depending on the source.  Hydro with the local rains.  Solar with time of day and also seasonal.  Wind is supposed to best at night.  Biomass (burning, typically) can run intermittent to cover in between. 

Storage -- I am reluctant to wander into this part, as folks sometimes get obsessed with it up front.   Heat, AC, Hot Water and Refrigeration (some of those Big Loads) can be stored in the form of Heat or Cold as well as produced from Heat (or cold) and never have to touch your electric system except for as a back-up option. 

If you wander into batteries and all the rest of the mess -- decide upfront who owns and is responsible for battery systems.  It can be done as a community source or individually per household.   My bias would be towards pushing that to the households -- folks that want a lot of storage can build or buy it, and those that do not will not have to help provide or maintain it for those that do. 

Getting further into design, you may also want to consider -- do you want this system to be fairly mobile?  (sort of Army thinking on my part -- gets up and goes -- any time, any where) or very solid and stationary -- which could also be very theft resistant. 

That is some quickie first pass pondering.  If you want a good first-time, turn-key ready-to-go successful system -- usually these things are done as sort of a Design -> Engineer -> Build (repeat) cycle about 3 to 4 times on paper in advance before you turn a screw or turn over a shovel of dirt.   Pondering through the details are part of the design process.

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