What about waterways, rivers etc...?

[dagrove22]

Just a thought , but ,I believe river transportation was huge at one point in our (USA) history. Excluding major ports in great need of repair. Smaller more community oriented ports could be repaired or built , Steamboats? Look like a viable thing.
Trying to think outside the box.

[dagrove22]

Maybe I should be thing more along the lines of post crash opportunities. Transportation business.
Steamboats with some type of modified or redesigned Sterling engine. Could be tin, thinking of the movie Riverworld.

[skepticus]

I just ran across a very pertinent article to this discussion in the course of a sustainability report for work:  http://marinelink.com/News/Article/330909.aspx. 

[Xenopus]

Just a thought , but ,I believe river transportation was huge at one point in our (USA) history. Excluding major ports in great need of repair. Smaller more community oriented ports could be repaired or built , Steamboats? Look like a viable thing.
Trying to think outside the box.

I'm sure you're right. That was one of Kunstler's original criteria for a community that will survive the meltdown: it had a reason for existing before the automobile. Large numbers of towns that fit that description were transportation hubs on rivers, lakes, canals. Finger Lakes of upstate NY, Erie Canal, Hudson River, Great Lakes, etc.

[Chip Haynes]

And we're going to fire those steamboats' boilers with.... ? Help me out here. Wood? Coal? Fermented weasel spit?

At least, along the coast, sail power may make a strong comeback.

Mighty tough to sail the Ohio River, though.

 

[Xenopus]

Fermented weasel spit, of course.

As in the old days, you sail when you can, a few steam engines, human-powered sweeps. On the canals, horses, etc....

[Chip Haynes]

The old river keel boats were perfect: Load them with cargo, steer them down river, sell the cargo, sell the boat for the wood that's in it, walk back home.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sailing the rivers would be a chore. In my short four years of living on the Ohio River, I never saw one single sailboat of any size, ever. I'm not saying you can't do it, but it would take a very good sailor to make it work, up river or down.

[digger]

A sail could be used to supplement diesel power when the wind and river direction is right.

I saw some designs for huge sail on ocean cargo ships, but again, only as a supplement to FF power when the wind is right.

[digger]

I just ran across a very pertinent article to this discussion in the course of a sustainability report for work:  http://marinelink.com/News/Article/330909.aspx. 

Interesting link.

Trucks produce 155 ton-miles of cargo movement per gallon of fuel
Railroads produce 413 ton-miles of cargo movement per gallon of fuel
Inland towboats move the most cargo per gallon of fuel -- 576 ton-miles per gallon

If you count maintenance costs in terms of gallons of fuel, it seems the numbers would be even more in favor of towboats, then railroads.

The cost of living will be cheaper near waterways and railroads. Real estate values will be higher in these places, all other things being equal.

Railroads could fall out of repair, or be sabotaged. But then I suppose a river could silt up, or be shut down by piracy.

Overall, I'd say it's best to be near a waterway and a railroad.

[Phildo]

The old river keel boats were perfect: Load them with cargo, steer them down river, sell the cargo, sell the boat for the wood that's in it, walk back home.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sailing the rivers would be a chore. In my short four years of living on the Ohio River, I never saw one single sailboat of any size, ever. I'm not saying you can't do it, but it would take a very good sailor to make it work, up river or down.

Here is the boat for you, Chip >>>

http://www.vintageprojects.com/boats/bicycle-boat.html

http://www.americanartifacts.com/smma/velo/velo.htm

[Xenopus]

If you count maintenance costs in terms of gallons of fuel, it seems the numbers would be even more in favor of towboats, then railroads.

The cost of living will be cheaper near waterways and railroads. Real estate values will be higher in these places, all other things being equal.

Railroads could fall out of repair, or be sabotaged. But then I suppose a river could silt up, or be shut down by piracy.

Overall, I'd say it's best to be near a waterway and a railroad.

That's how we chose the doomstead! I entirely agree. Water will be the cheapest way of moving cargo and people when things get really dire.

[Rosemarys Baby]

I grew up in Syracuse NY, a city created by the Erie Canal (built between I think 1810 and 1820). The Erie canal really sparked the growth of all of New York's cities (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica, Schenectady all were on the canal route). The canal facilitated the cheap transport of goods and food staples from the midwest/west to the cities of the eastern seaboard, and is the principal reason NYC ended up being the biggest city in the country.

The canal barges were originally towed by horses/oxen/donkeys. I'm not sure how the locks were operated, but it was 1820 so it must have some mechanical system, maybe steam but I think animal driven also. The canal is still functional, known as the "Barge Canal System" in NYS. Maybe my poor old hometown will come from the near dead place it now is.

While I'm on my soapbox, would it not have been nice if this darned stimulus actually pushed for the restoration of our inter/intra city rail systems, and started putting back the streetcar systems in our smaller cities that GM paid to have removed in the 1950's! Talk about a short sighted, stupid decision. Leave it to GM! It's likely too late, but we shouls use the tax system to DISCOURAGE vehicle ownership if you live in an urban area. Say, one care per household is neutral, no penalty but no credit.  Choose no vehicle, and you'd get a tax credit. Penalties for each additional vehicle per household beyond the one allowed. I wish our governments had some common sense!



RMB

[Filipek]

Makes you wonder what effect all those river dams are going to have on this idea though.

[dagrove22]

I was watching a program on the Science channel called  life after man, something like that. It showed a progression of how man's world will deteriorate. During the course of the show it discussed structural failure of pretty much everything. The dam part implied that without constant maintenance they would fail in a short period of time.

[more-gloomer-than-doomer]

I grew up in Syracuse NY, a city created by the Erie Canal (built between I think 1810 and 1820). The Erie canal really sparked the growth of all of New York's cities (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica, Schenectady all were on the canal route). The canal facilitated the cheap transport of goods and food staples from the midwest/west to the cities of the eastern seaboard, and is the principal reason NYC ended up being the biggest city in the country.

The canal barges were originally towed by horses/oxen/donkeys. I'm not sure how the locks were operated, but it was 1820 so it must have some mechanical system, maybe steam but I think animal driven also. The canal is still functional, known as the "Barge Canal System" in NYS. Maybe my poor old hometown will come from the near dead place it now is.

While I'm on my soapbox, would it not have been nice if this darned stimulus actually pushed for the restoration of our inter/intra city rail systems, and started putting back the streetcar systems in our smaller cities that GM paid to have removed in the 1950's! Talk about a short sighted, stupid decision. Leave it to GM! It's likely too late, but we shouls use the tax system to DISCOURAGE vehicle ownership if you live in an urban area. Say, one care per household is neutral, no penalty but no credit.  Choose no vehicle, and you'd get a tax credit. Penalties for each additional vehicle per household beyond the one allowed. I wish our governments had some common sense!

RMB

Quite a few years ago we rented a houseboat and took a trip on the Erie Canal.  It was one of the best vacations we ever took.  The locks are gravity filled so there is no need for pumps.  I'm pretty sure the locks are electrically powered, but may have manual backups.  It's too many years ago for me to remember all the details.