I will gladly pay you in Tungsten on Tuesday for Gold bullion today

[TechGuy]

Not sure if this story is BS, but it's interesting:

http://theburningplatform.com/economy/harvey-organs-have-you-already-ordered-your-tungsten-bar

On Thursday, it was disclosed by Rob Kirby that in an "Asian depository" , gold bricks were found to have been filled with Tungsten.
Tungsten is unique and one of its chief characteristics is that it has the same density of gold.  Gold is very dense and so is tungsten.  Tungsten is also very cheap.

One of the oldest scams is making a brick of tungsten and covering the brick with gold, sealing all the edges and covering the whole surface with real gold.

It now seems that the Chinese asked for an assay on some of their bricks and lo and behold, some were filled with Tungsten.  You can imagine the nightmare that this presents itself.

[rdocr]

Tungsten is an important industrial metal, and granted that it is cheaper than gold, but it is not cheap and not all that common.

No, I would not want to find tungsten in my gold bars if I was a bank or whatever.

We’ll see many metals become more precious as their industrial needs diminish the supply.
Silver is the best example, but copper, chrome, molybdenum are gaining costs as they become scarcer. We are going to see some great changes in the value of silver soon enough.


Ralph

[max_power]

i find it hard to believe that tungsten has the same density as gold. doesnt gold have more particles per atom? Does tungsten have a bunch of extra neutrons or something?

[max_power]

aha 19.25 g/cm3, very close

[cygnus]

Amazing.  My guess is these bars have been lent out and shuffled around by banks and dealers to fill in gaps in the (way overleveraged) global gold supply - maybe even for decades.  My guess is these bricks have "been around" more times than a crack whore at this point.   So there is likely no telling just when or where they were actually adulterated.  

Gonna be interesting to watch the spectacle.  Countries have gone to war over less.  

[PseudoPhil]

I'm sure they keep meticulous records. They will be going after whomever sold them those bars, with a vengeance. This could tilt the market. If they announce that a significant percentage of their bars have been compromised, all of the significant gold holdings around the world would have to be re-assayed. Whoever produced these bars could go broke. I wonder if Comex had anything to do with it. That would be another piece of brown stuff impacting the impeller. Good for goldbugs, though. If it became known that some of the gold held by ETF's wasn't actually gold, the shout will go up for inventory checks through independent audits.

This could be a major earthquake under the foundations of the gold market.

[onemintomidnight]

I'm sure they keep meticulous records. They will be going after whomever sold them those bars, with a vengeance. This could tilt the market. If they announce that a significant percentage of their bars have been compromised, all of the significant gold holdings around the world would have to be re-assayed. Whoever produced these bars could go broke. I wonder if Comex had anything to do with it. That would be another piece of brown stuff impacting the impeller. Good for goldbugs, though. If it became known that some of the gold held by ETF's wasn't actually gold, the shout will go up for inventory checks through independent audits.

This could be a major earthquake under the foundations of the gold market.

It would be funny if the IMF did it. and India just bought up a huge lot of them.

[cygnus]

I'm sure they keep meticulous records. They will be going after whomever sold them those bars, with a vengeance.

Oh, I'm sure they will know who sold them those bars, and who sold them to that person, and so on.  And who was "lent" them at any given time to cover redemptions of their overleveraged paper sales.  But like I said, those bars have probably "been around" a lot - who can say exactly at what point they were messed with?  I expect a lot of finger pointing. 

[PseudoPhil]

I'm sure they keep meticulous records. They will be going after whomever sold them those bars, with a vengeance.

Oh, I'm sure they will know who sold them those bars, and who sold them to that person, and so on.  And who was "lent" them at any given time to cover redemptions of their overleveraged paper sales.  But like I said, those bars have probably "been around" a lot - who can say exactly at what point they were messed with?  I expect a lot of finger pointing. 

Agreed, but a bit aside the point, I think. The Chinese will demand that whoever sold them the bars make good on the contracted gold, regardless of the seller's knowledge (or lack thereof) of the actual gold content of the bars. Somebody's going to pay, and it'll be whoever sold them the bars. It would start a chain reaction of demands for delivery, and everyone in the chain will demand that those who delivered the adulterated bars pay up. Once it is determined who PRODUCED the bars the chain will come to it's last link. That producer will most likely go broke, and the chain of buyer/sellers will probably collapse.

[cygnus]

I'm sure they keep meticulous records. They will be going after whomever sold them those bars, with a vengeance.

Oh, I'm sure they will know who sold them those bars, and who sold them to that person, and so on.  And who was "lent" them at any given time to cover redemptions of their overleveraged paper sales.  But like I said, those bars have probably "been around" a lot - who can say exactly at what point they were messed with?  I expect a lot of finger pointing. 

Agreed, but a bit aside the point, I think. The Chinese will demand that whoever sold them the bars make good on the contracted gold, regardless of the seller's knowledge (or lack thereof) of the actual gold content of the bars. Somebody's going to pay, and it'll be whoever sold them the bars. It would start a chain reaction of demands for delivery, and everyone in the chain will demand that those who delivered the adulterated bars pay up. Once it is determined who PRODUCED the bars the chain will come to it's last link. That producer will most likely go broke, and the chain of buyer/sellers will probably collapse.

True - who actually DID the deed, and who is LEGALLY LIABLE are probably going to be two different groups. 

But anyone who is legally liable for this much fraud - eesh.  You're right. They will be out of business and probably bankrupt several times over, depending on how many bad bars are found.  That means they may decide to fight it out.  I guess we'll see. 

[PseudoPhil]

Only the lawyers will profit... and perhaps those who already hold verifiable physical gold.

[Phildo]

Welcome to Fiat Gold.

Pretty comical if folks did not think the silly yellow stuff had some value.

  

[risquebznss]

You'd think they'd be using some of these tests to defeat the tungsten gig, especially at a high level.   But I bet this scam will be widespread to retail mom and pop customers. 
 

The Density Test to Catch Fraud

Everyone is familiar with the concept of density; how much weight will fit into a given volume. The more weight fits into a volume, the greater the density. Every substance has a unique density that helps identify it. The very concept of density was invented twenty-two hundred years ago by the Greek philosopher Archimedes for the purpose of detecting fake, impure, or diluted gold. Lead is less dense than gold. When lead is mixed with gold, the overall density of the lump of metal goes down. Archimedes used this fact to catch a dishonest goldsmith in the act of fraud.

Before the density test, gold was debased with lead. Lead is very dense, cheap, and easy to work with because of its low melting point. But it isn't as dense as gold. The density test will catch it every time.

To successfully overcome the density test, you need to mix gold with a substance that is exactly as dense as the gold itself is. Since nothing has the exact density of gold, forgers approximate it by mixing something of higher density, with something of lower density, so the result is exactly the density of gold.

The difficulty in faking gold is in finding substances denser than gold. Almost everything is less dense than gold. Most things that are denser than gold are also more expensive than gold. A hundred years ago, platinum was cheaper than gold, so forgers used platinum. Now platinum, which is denser than gold, is also much more expensive than gold, so you don't see forgers using this technique.

It was brought to my attention today that modern forgers are using tungsten instead, covering a granulated tungsten core with a thin coating of real gold. Tungsten has a density of 19.25 gms/cc, compared to gold at 17.19 gms/cc.

Tungsten is cheaper than gold, but it wasn't used in the past because it was so hard to work with. Tungsten has a melting point 1000° higher than most commercial furnaces and kilns can provide. A new technique has come into vogue. The tungsten, which is hard to melt, pour, or forge, is turned into powder. Then the powder is mixed with something such as resin, epoxy, or clay and pressed into cakes of the right size and shape. The result, if you mixed the tungsten powder and resin in the right ratio, is something with the same density as gold.
New Tests to Defeat Gold Fraud
Electrical Resistance

Every substance has a characteristic electrical resistance. You can measure this with a cheap $5 voltmeter bought at any electronics shop. Divide the voltage drop across the coin by the weight of the coin to get the resistance of the coin. If the resistance doesn't match that of gold, you have a fake!
Thermal Conductivity

Gold is extremely thermally conductive. Every substance has a characteristic thermal conductivity that can be used to identify it. To test it, you need two temperature probes, a hot plate, and a stopwatch. This equipment should cost less than $100 at any electronics shop. Heat up the hotplate. Put one temperature probe on the hot plate. Then let the edge of the coin touch the hot plate. Put the other temperature probe at the top of the coin. Use the stopwatch to measure how long it takes for the top of the coin to get ten degrees hotter. Divide that number by the weight of the coin. The number will tell you the thermal conductivity of the coin. If the conductivity doesn't match that of gold, you have a fake!
Spectrometer

Spectrometers, spectroscopes, spectrographs, and mass spectrograms are destructive tests, making them unsuitable for rare coins. Also, they are expensive, requiring bulky, expensive machinery.

Reflective spectroscopy (as opposed to emissive) is useless, because the coating of the coin is probably pure gold.

MRI and radioactive emission spectroscopy are non-destructive tests that can be done, but they are very expensive and require bulky machinery.
Magnetic Field Test

A test suggested by John Sokol is to put the coin next to an electric coil and watch the effect it has on the magnetic field generated by the coil. This is called the AC (Alternating Current) magnetic field eddy current test. The fingerprint of this test is also unique for most substances. The equipment needed should cost less than $100 for this test. This is a theoretical test; if there is interested parties, we could spend the time to work up the design and parts list.
X-Ray Density

Fire some xrays through the coin and see how many make it through the coin. That will tell you a lot about the metal. Cost of the equipment, same as a dental x-ray machine, $10,000 and up.
Acoustic Resonance

This test must be tuned to the specific coin, such as a krugerrand or gold maple leaf. You find the resonant frequency of the coin. For the particular weight and size of the coin, the resonant frequency will tell you a lot about the composition of the coin. This test could identify a coin through 1/4 mile of water.

For further reading on detecting fraudulent coins, I recommend the website of Dr. Ilya Prokopov.

The information on thermal conductivity and electrical resistance was inspired by the silent computing work done by John Sokol. John Sokol was consulted on the spectroscopy, sonar, radar, xray, and magnetic field aspects of testing for gold.

[spacecase0]

you can test lots of gold very fast with a X-ray florescence.

[bcire]

Tungsten is an important industrial metal, and granted that it is cheaper than gold, but it is not cheap and not all that common.

Yeah Tungsten is expensive, but it's vastly less expensive than gold. So yes, Tungsten can be used to counterfeit gold.

There are only two elements close enough to gold's density that can reasonably be used to counterfeit gold - Uranium (and depleted Uranium) and Tungsten. I started a thread on kitco last Spring speculating it would be possible for sophisticated counterfeiters to copy gold gold coins and bullion that would pass most SG tests. However more sophisticated tests, relying on acoustics and thermal/conduction (gold is among the best elemental conductors, along with silver and copper -- all related elements) would spot these counterfeits. Point being most 'amateurs' likely would not notice these counterfeit pieces.

Oh, and the radioactive Pandas were likely because they were created from scraped Gold used close to nuclear reactor, and had acquired some residual radioactivity from neutron bombardment.

My feeling is there may be a lot of counterfeit Gold out there, especially when you consider most gold is alloyed, which reduces its density and makes it easier to counterfeit.

Here's my post from Kitco...

***

This thread from ealier this month caught my eye:

https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=36475

Well here's some news. I bought a 1 oz Twin Panda coin from China just last week and I decided to scan the quite beautiful coin with my Geiger counter. Don't ask me why! Guess what I discovered? The Twin Pandas 1 oz is radio active! You read that right! The gold coin reads 125 and normal background radiation is 0 to 25! The contamination level is not high enough to be harmful, but if a person owned 50 of those puppies the cumulative affect could be questionable health wise.

Radioactive pandas ?! Things that make you go hmmm...

Generally gold is considered difficult to counterfeit. One of the reasons for this is its unique density - gold is among the most dense elements. However, Uranium is also a very heavy metal. This got me thinking - would uranium be a suitable element to make a base metal very close to the density of gold?

A quick look at the density of the various elements answered this question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elements_by_density

If you look at this chart you'll see there are only a few elements that could economically be used to counterfeit gold - two that stand out are Tungsten and Uranium.

Gold has a density (in grams per cubic centimeter) of ~19.3 - Tungsten is 19.25, and Uranium is ~18.95. (depleted uranium may be slightly more dense > 19 g/cm 3)

There are a handful of exotic elements more dense than gold, however they are rare and costly - often more so than gold. Platinum is more dense, and also more costly, than gold. The most dense element known, Osmium (22.6), is toxic, hard to work with, and costs around $100/gram!

So let's take a closer look at Tungsten and Uranium. Tungsten is very close to the density of gold - however this element is notoriously difficult to work with, partially due to its high melting point. Apparently in order to get a solid piece of Tungsten the easiest way to do this is to sinter it, which lowers its density.

This leaves Uranium. Uranium is also very close to golds density, however it's just a bit lighter. Uranium is  also much cheaper than gold. Now, 24 Karat (pure) Gold is denser than Uranium, but most gold coins - what the counterfeiters are after - are not pure gold. 22 Karat is commonly used (often by alloying the gold with silver and copper, to increase its toughness). 22 Karat gold is less dense than pure gold, having a density of 17-18 g/cm 3.

So I'm going to conjecture it may be possible to make a base metal (alloy), primarily with Uranium or depleted Uranium, that has a density almost exactly matching 22 karat (or less) gold. The counterfeit piece would be plated or jacketed with gold. Such a coin would pass a specific gravity test, and would pass an acid test. Obviously its weight would be the same.

Detecting such a counterfeit would require more sophisticated tests. A Geiger counter would be a start - any coins that are slightly radioactive should be considered highly suspect.

Both Silver and Gold (respectively) are the best elemental conductors of heat and electricity. One infallable test involves heating one side of the coin, and measuring how quickly the other side heats up and cools down. See this patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2002/0034211.html

Considering the current state of the economy, and the price of gold, all I can say is "caveat emptor"!