R-E-S-P-E-C-T - find out what it means to us...

[Grower]

think James brings up an interesting idea though too - women have been socialised into believing that to be "successful" in a corporate society, we have to act the same way as men. We need to be tough, not let our emotions rule us, put up with bullying and harrassment, go for the throat etc etc  And when we do that, we are ball breakers, but if we don't, we are too soft...

Once upon a time that was me. I shudder to think of it now, but where I come from (mentally, not geographically) being an empowered woman essentially meant acting like a man. This was women's liberation, I was told. That was the face of a strong woman. To fit in with the men and be accepted as one of them.

Notice that in this scenario, being a woman is still being judged by male standards and male acceptance into "their" world. I still have to do what they want and serve them to be a good successful and strong girl. It's a modern twist on a really old idea.

But a strong woman doesn't deny herself her own personality and emotions. She doesn't pretend to be something she isn't so she can fit in and be accepted. A strong woman doesn't try to get acceptance and approval from anyone but herself. A strong woman doesn't deny that for one week out of every month for about 30 years, she has special needs and a strong woman doesn't suppress those needs and pretend periods doesn't exist. She also doesn't just try to hurry up and get over the messy business of babies for the purpose of returning back to this so she doesn't lose respect and her edge in her career for taking time off to give life to another human being.

In short, a strong woman doesn't deny her entire womanhood. Strong women embrace what it is to be a woman in ways that are true to themselves and need no approval or permission.

But that's what I did for awhile, until it was just killing me emotionally and choking me spiritually and I quit. I've found far more power on my spiritual path than I ever would have in that world. In a cut-throat environment, the only one that ultimately ends up bleeding to death over it is me.

I love this. I think it's better at saying what I was trying to say. Of course I'm a woman and proud of it. And my ideals of strength are not a man's ideals of strength. I just don't try to meet ideals of either gender, I guess. I am a strong person who is a woman. So there's a lotta woman in that. But my strength is not defined by my gender.  And I admire strong people who are men, too. It's beyond gender.

[golddust]

I love this. I think it's better at saying what I was trying to say. Of course I'm a woman and proud of it. And my ideals of strength are not a man's ideals of strength. I just don't try to meet ideals of either gender, I guess. I am a strong person who is a woman. So there's a lotta woman in that. But my strength is not defined by my gender.  And I admire strong people who are men, too. It's beyond gender.

I definitely understand and respect what you're saying.

In my path there is a duality. The masculine and the feminine. Each embodies different attributes and the goal is to be balanced between the two. Which doesn't have to mean you're 50% each really, just at a point of mutual respect and integration for both energies in your life. I do recognize gender differences in how power and strength is expressed and healthy, balanced power is going to be positive coming from either one. It just has a different style to it. I think for me, in my spirituality, these masculine and feminine principles are equal but different energies. I've seen men who are just the embodiment of the masculine principle and it's quite attractive. But they have respect for women and other people and aren't any more afraid of their emotions in general than they are of their sexual prowess for instance. They are the earthly representation of the god Pan in my mind. And I've seen women who definitely live more on the feminine end of the spectrum as loving, nurturing and kins but they are powerful and have an air of natural authority about them and you just do not want to mess with them. That's all still balance. I've come to like the differences. I really enjoying seeing someone embody one thing,  another embody another. I use to have a problem with it, because I came from a place of experiencing great inequality between the dual principles and the genders in my personal life and in growing up in a home with patriarchal values and beliefs. So differences to me then meant inequality. If they were different, one had to be better than the other. Or at least preferred over the other. But diversity is a wonderful sight and a great teacher. I value all the different healthy expressions of power and dual principles.

[Pandora]

Zenobia, I don't know what started this thread and I don't think I will look for the reason as it will just make me mad.

I will however comment on the duality of people.  I started life as a preachers daughter and was taught that girls don't
need to be educated or learn how to protect themselves as us big strong men will protect you.  What happened when
those big strong men weren't there to protect me?  All I will say is there are some really sick people in this world.

I took that bad encounter and changed my life.  I got myself an education, learned how to take care of myself, learn
that it is OK to say FUCK OFF.. I still can't say cunt...I learned that I can be sexy, smart and fix my own god damn car.
I will kill my own spider thank you very much.  I also learned to let my husband open the car door.  I taught my boys
to cook and my girls to cuss.  I taught them all how to protect themselves.   One thing I did not teach them was that
there is a slot for girls and a slot for boys.  I taught them to be strong and loving.  Why can't you cook a great dinner and
then play poker for who has to do the dishes?  My daughters are strong and opinionated and my boys are the same.  They all
know what love is and what it isn't. 

This world is made up of alot of different types of people, why not learn to enjoy the diversity that comes with life.  When we Respect
all that life has to offer, it is the many different people we meet along the way that makes life is so much richer.

[Chickengirl]

I think we need to be careful when we talk about feminists and women's liberation - especially when we talk about "them" trying to tell us to be more like men in the workplace, or deny our femininity etc etc.

Most of those typed of comments are ones that originated from men They didn't like the changes they saw, and felt threatened. So it became easier to blame the women's movement than look at their bias.

Yes, there have been some people from the women's rights movement who have said that femininity is to be avoided, that we must be career women, that raising a family holds a woman back from her potential. But there are idiots in every group, and ones that see only through their own biases without taking the whole concept of "woman" into account.

When I look back at the early days of the women's right's movement I see a couple of things (remember, I'm only 29, so I have a different view I guess from someone who lived through it):

That there seems to have been a massive swing of the pendulum from the "little woman" concept over to the opposite - the "ballbreaking executive", and that they both represent an extreme that is not reflective of women and their needs, desires or true abilities. But the swing to the extreme was a natural reaction after the repression of the "little woman". Now we are looking for something in the middle. Women who are able to simply be women, whatever that means *for them*.

Which brings up the second point - that feminism and the women's rights movement were meant to be all about CHOICE. Women had very limited choices before the women's rights movement really got going. Usually you had to give up your job (if you had one) as soon as you were married, certainly as soon as you were pregnant. Job options were limited to what was deemed "suitable" for a woman, and "suitable" often seem to coincide with "stuff men didn't think they should have to do". Support for women in abusive situations was minimal - women generally had to choose between leaving and being stigmatised as an abandoned or loose woman, or staying and living with the abuse. Hidden drinking and drug use was rife amongst middle class women, simply because there was no other "out". etc etc. We all know the stories.

The women's rights movement and feminism sought to change that - to give women the choices that men had, the right to be able to have the same kind of control over their own person and life that men had. So they fought for women to be able to work, to have equal pay for equal work (still don't have that, by the way), to have access to tertiary education, for sexual assualt laws to be revamped and to also apply to women who are raped by husbands/boyfriends, for assistance for families suffereing from domestic abuse, blah blah blah.

Where is falls over was that some parts of the movement assumed that having the right to choose to work (or whatever) meant that if you DIDN'T choose to work, you were letting the side down. That women should boldly go where no woman had gone before, whether they wanted to or not. And that of course put us squarely back in the same kind of position we were before.

Now, if you choose to work, you get blamed if your kids aren't perfect because you don't stay home. But if you stay home, you are bludging off society because you are too lazy to work, and if your kids aren't perfect, well that's because you spoil them. If you say "I'm happy being at home (and running the household, cooking meals, raising children, looking after gardens and chooks, taking care of the paperwork and finances etc etc)", you aren't living up to your potential. If you say "I don't want to go to university" you are ruining your life by not taking the opportunity to get as far ahead as you are told you should  If you get married, you are taking part in a patriarchal institution designed to subjugate women. If you don't, you obviously aren't commited to the relationship and have questionable morals. If you choose to have kids you are adding to the problems of overpopulation and resource use, and letting your animal instincts rule you. If you choose not to have kids, well you must be some kind of weirdo, because ALL women need to have children to really be women 

Don't even get me started on lesbians. They are either "hot", because men dig the idea of two women having sex together, or "butch dykes" because they reject some guy who is trying to wave his penis at them 

I think that we still see feminism as promoting an extreme. Some feminists do. But the everyday feminists I see are regular women, some have kids, some don't. Some are married, some aren't. And they all believe that individual women should be the ones that decide what they do with their lives. One very wise woman said to me "You are either a feminist, or a doormat". What she meant by that is if a woman believes she has the right to drink in public, vote, work, bring rape charges against her husband etc, she is a feminist, even if she doesn't realise it. Anything else is being a doormat. And I think she might be right. Demanding respect is the act of a feminist.

So guess what - you're all feminists too

(Even if you haven't burned a bra lately...)

[Six Gun Jim]

Man is there some great insight here. I think what a lot of you said sort of missed what I originally wanted to try and say. Golddust I don't mind a passionate communicator at all, I am myself.   I also don't mind a woman who kills her own spiders, knows how to kill a man who tries to hurt her or hops in while I'm reassembling a fuel pump. All that is great, excellent qualities of a real woman with a little backbone and some fire in her. Respect that, yes I do.
   What I don't like is a woman who thinks yelling AT me is the way to go at the first opportunity. A mean, loud mouthed blow hard. I'm not saying this as a slight or that I'm so cool but that isn't going to scare me or motivate me one bit. I don't do that with anybody until it's all I have left, I'd just as soon walk away. By "feminine" I simply mean that women tend to think a little more and try to keep things civil. A real man does the same thing. A man and woman generally have an agreement that keeps things in harmony. The agreement says I don't EVER threaten you with the power I have and you don't EVER threaten me with the power you have either. I won't test you in your arena and you don't test me in mine. I won't lay a hand on you and you won't get in my face like you want to have a fist fight. THAT is what I don't like. It's an abuse of the agreement, it's happened to me and I made a note of it. If I get one whiff of a woman who wants to toe up when she doesn't get her every whim I'm done. I won't have somebody mocking me because they know I won't do what they are daring me to do.
    So I guess what I'm saying is it's fine to be powerful, just be careful how you wield it. Go after an attacker however you want, kill em' all. But when it's just a little disagreement and you test a man by acting like a man you put a GOOD man in a corner. He can't react, you box him in, you win but he'll never respect you doing him that way. Same goes for using sex as a reason to do things, that will never work here. It isn't a game you can play that way, I'll never respect that. I've had that pulled on me too, out the door they go. In living by a code of conduct to others you find you apply it to yourself, things like that you won't tolerate. I have yet to see anyone end up happy playing either power game, I'll pass until I find somebody who understands the agreement. You all sound like excellent women, I doubt if any of this even applies to you. Just some things I have experienced that made me not respect someone. -James

[MEA]

In the early days of the women's movement (like 100 years before I was even born) the idea was not the make women more like men, but to make men more like women. For example, to eliminate the double standard in sexual morales by having men toe the line, not just women. Didn't last, thought.

[golddust]

That there seems to have been a massive swing of the pendulum from the "little woman" concept over to the opposite - the "ballbreaking executive", and that they both represent an extreme that is not reflective of women and their needs, desires or true abilities. But the swing to the extreme was a natural reaction after the repression of the "little woman". Now we are looking for something in the middle. Women who are able to simply be women, whatever that means *for them*.

You say this so well. And I'm just about 28, so we're basically the same age.

Where is falls over was that some parts of the movement assumed that having the right to choose to work (or whatever) meant that if you DIDN'T choose to work, you were letting the side down. That women should boldly go where no woman had gone before, whether they wanted to or not. And that of course put us squarely back in the same kind of position we were before.

Now, if you choose to work, you get blamed if your kids aren't perfect because you don't stay home. But if you stay home, you are bludging off society because you are too lazy to work, and if your kids aren't perfect, well that's because you spoil them. If you say "I'm happy being at home (and running the household, cooking meals, raising children, looking after gardens and chooks, taking care of the paperwork and finances etc etc)", you aren't living up to your potential. If you say "I don't want to go to university" you are ruining your life by not taking the opportunity to get as far ahead as you are told you should  If you get married, you are taking part in a patriarchal institution designed to subjugate women. If you don't, you obviously aren't commited to the relationship and have questionable morals. If you choose to have kids you are adding to the problems of overpopulation and resource use, and letting your animal instincts rule you. If you choose not to have kids, well you must be some kind of weirdo, because ALL women need to have children to really be women   

I really, really know what you're talking about. I have faced each and every one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios. Every single one.

For all intents and purposes, I'm a housewife. I have a college education that I left, damn near last minute, because it was just too detrimental to me. I have no place in corporate America. I like being at home. I like cooking, and though I don't like cleaning, I enjoy the rewards of a clean house.  I like being with my pets all day. I like running errands and doing the shopping. I like making money on the side making things out of my home to sell. I like writing and working on my art. I like reading voraciously. I also like all the things I get to do that are meaningful to me that I wouldn't be able to do with a job. I think I wouldn't have found PO and this forum with a job. My mind would be in another world, a world I don't consider compatible with this one for me. I continue to educate myself, but in other ways. I take classes that have purpose and meaning in my life by teachers I respect and trust. I'm doing a very intense class on herbalism with Susun Weed for instance. Being "just a housewife" gives me the freedom I need to not feel like a caged animal and not waste my life at stuff that doesn't matter to me. I'm not here because of a controlling or traditional husband, or anything else. My life, and my life with my husband is just happier this way and it's what I choose. And no one really understands that. I'm lazy and worthless according to society because I don't bring home much or any money. I get funny looks, even from some stay at home moms because I'm a stay home minus the mom part. I don't tend to care what people think, but it's annoying. They got to make their choice that is best for their life, I see no reason for people to be puzzled by my choice.

[golddust]

That's good to know, Jim.  But I'm out on the spider thing. If it's larger than a quarter, forget it. I'll spray it with chemicals or throw a shoe at it but I'm not getting any closer. 

[Grower]

There are definitely many different flavors of feminism. But most, like you say, CG, are just about equal opportunity, the same shot. Not more privileges, but not being denied the chance to do something we can do well just because of ovaries.

And Jim, I agree that some things are not threats or bargaining chips. I NEVER ever "use" sex for either. It's not a reward. It's a gift. Anything else, and I don't like the word that comes to mind.

[Grower]

In the following excerpt from her groundbreaking article, “The Divine Feminine Unveiled,” EnlightenNext magazine senior editor Elizabeth Debold describes the challenging and sacred role that women need to play in the evolution of culture:
       
"We women can move culture forward and create a future beyond patriarchy. But it will neither be easy nor necessarily feel “natural” if we see our nature primarily in terms of the roles we have played in culture over most of historical time….The goal would be to develop a consciousness that both includes our biological and cultural inheritance and also transcends it, so that a new, free space of relationship is created in culture in which to catalyze a new partnership between women and men. This would be a new expression of the feminine, and given how essential it is for transforming our world, such an endeavor is nothing less than sacred."

[kathleen]

I keep mentioning this book, The Fall, by Steve Taylor because it does such a marvelous job exploring the foundations of our society after what he considers the true "fall". According to Taylor the fall can be viewed as the time when certain more patriarchal tribal entities fled areas of desertification and infiltrated more egalitarian societies. The changes from that unnatural marriage can still be felt today as our entire culture has become predicated on this type of worldview. I think we all need to nurture empathy and kindness, men and women both if we are to salvage anything.

The book looks at the hatred of children and women that becames so prevalent in the post-fall societies. Taylor had the interesting view that this hatred is an expected shift in values when your culture becomes consumed by difficult living conditions. It isn't a reflection that men are inherently evil (or the vast majority of women who emulate this behavior); it was to be expected. If anyone is left in a few hundred years I would imagine that it will be because we "devolved" back to these types of groups.

here is a link to Taylor's site where he posts essays-this one is apt:
http://www.steventaylor.talktalk.net/mergingmalefemale.htm

modified to add above link

[urbanfarmer]

What wonderful posts! I am better with pictures than words so I will put in a quick photo essay: First I was a hippie, then I burned my bra. I wore khaki pants, gant shirts and did everything like a man. I was a respected "business man"    I don't think I owned a dress or skirt for 15 years. My first husband of 17 years did not respect me, cheated on me, the works. I left him and worked hard at trying to figure out who I was, not what I thought society expected of me.

I stayed single for over 10 years until a few years ago. New hubby was a true man, would never have cheated on me. I could have hit him up the side of the head with a two by four and he would not have hit me back. I respected that and did not provoke him. But if he ever started to give me shit, I just warned him that he did not want to go there. He could tell from my demeanor that I meant business and he would back off and apologize. A woman over 50 is a powerful force! Just knowing who I am and where my strength comes from allows me to be quietly powerful.

I can kill my own spiders now, and totally take care of my little farm by myself, covered in chicken and goat shit half the time, and always have dirt under my finger nails. But when I go out to any type of function, I gussy up and put on the heels. I am probably the most feminine woman there, guess it is my southern upbringing! But mainly I do it because I enjoy doing it and am not afraid to wear pink!

Edited to add: Hubby was the one who stayed home and took care of the house cleaning, cooking, laundry, everything! I would come home from work to a hot meal and foot rub. Opening the drawers in my chest was always fascinating, every pair of panties neatly folded! (Ex navy guy) So we did a complete roll reversal and it worked out well for both of us.

Next time around I want to be the one who stays home, as I have never gotten to do that.

[Six Gun Jim]

Nice Kalashnikov you have there.  You stayed single for a good long while, I am of the opinion that does wonders for a person man or woman. You learn so much when there is nobody there to tell you to be any certain way. Glad you found a good one on this go round urban, sounds like you have the happy formula figured out.   

[urbanfarmer]

Sadly he died of a massive heart attack last year. Just when I finally had found a keeper!  :'(

Cute lil Ruskie stump digger ain't it? I think I should paint it pink, too!
http://www.cracked.com/funny-2255-ak-47s/

[Chickengirl]

Urban, sorry you lost your hubby  he sounds like a real friend.

I was single for five years before meeting my partner - that five years, combined with raising my daughter, really gave me time to grow up, figure out who I was as a person and as a women, and to decide what I would and wouldn't accept in my life. It also allowed me to develop some self respect - and i think self respect is the key to having respect from other people.

I can't use sex as a bargaining tool - it would never work  going without because I'm cranky at someone else just seems like shooting myself in the foot!

Besides, hormones, lack of sleep and small kidlets mean we need to take every opportunity that comes along lol!

And I see sex as such an integral part of a relationship, and a fairly basic need for people, that refusing out of spite would bring something into my relationship that would leave a sour taste in my mouth  Manipulating people like that is NOt what relationships are meant to be about.