R-E-S-P-E-C-T - find out what it means to us...

[golddust]

Great post, Zenobia. Everyone has made such good points, I don't know who to agree with first! The various definitions are respect are all valid and quietnite's comment about some people fearing women's power is true in my experience. All female covens even (I'm pagan) still draw ire and all kinds of nasty comments about estrogen and "What's wrong, they hate men?" or derogatory comments about being lesbians and idiot stuff like that from people who should know better, but are still just a product of a society that fears and hates women. Not even the gay male covens (many call themselves Fairies even) get as much shit. 

So to sum up: Lots of nice dudes out there. Some really not nice at all dudes out there, that better stay away from us feral she-bitches if they don't want to end up limping back home. 

I have varying levels of respect, from some guy on the street to my life partner. Basic human respect I give even a total stranger is just allowing them their own privacy, freedom, and consideration for their feelings and their personal space. I won't play loud music at 3am. I won't go poking around in their yard. I won't yell crude things. I won't act generally rude. I won't touch them without permission, including especially the belly of a pregnant woman! I won't ask questions that aren't my business. If someone has something to say I let them say it until it gets to the point where it's disrespecting me or crossing MY boundaries and then I shut them down. My life partner gets that and a great deal more considerations and a great deal more freedom of speech around me. I generally want to live and let live. I like to give others the same freedoms and considerations I'd want, and I believe we should each be able to walk our chosen path on this Earth.

Oh and Jim, I speak loudly. I have a loud voice and I get boisterous. I swear like a sailor and I make sideways comments sometimes that would make one of 'em blush or at least ask me to tone it down. (I've had people ask me if I'm from New York or the east coast, if that puts it into perspective any.  ) I've been accused of yelling by more sensitive folks when I'm doing no such thing! The more excited and passionate about something I get the louder I talk and the faster it all comes out! LOL. Bring up a topic dear to me, and there I go! I don't tend to talk OVER people or interrupt much, it's just that when it's my turn to hold the talking stick, it might be a good time to lower the volume on the hearing aid.  Those who've just met me accuse me of being shy (I'm not, I'm in observation mode when I meet someone new or when something in the air doesn't feel right even around people I do know -- make a mental note of this should we have a meet up sometime!) but people who get to know me after a little while say I'm just an intense person. Not 24/7, but often enough.  They also say I'm very funny, generous, intelligent, insightful and know way too much useless trivia and have too many random thoughts. (Which aren't random at all when your train of thought simply does not ever have a caboose!) So I'm pretty well-rounded and versatile in my personality, but loud and boisterous just can't be overlooked when describing me. My mental activity is just ferocious and it gets the best of me.  So I hope you don't misinterpret me should we meet in person.

And I wouldn't consider myself feminine. I feel womanly and earthy like one of those earth goddess types. I don't know what most peoples ideas of feminine are, frankly. I didn't grow up with a single feminine role model. The women in my family either spit nails or bible verses and my mom was a shrinking violet. I think of alot of pink and cherub statues and flowers and constant romance. Which, has absolutely nothing to do with me. I love the dark side too much for all that.  I used to know someone who was the epitome of that though. She wasn't so much feminine as just, she never emotionally matured beyond her Barbie days and so she just looks at the world the way a little girl would. I've heard sensitivity is a feminine thing. Well, I'm extraordinarily sensitive to my surroundings and environment and act like a sponge. It overwhelms me at times. I guess that too depends on their definition of sensitive. So, I don't know but I don't much get caught up in others opinions on my femininity, lol. I am just me, and whoever doesn't like it can just bite it. 

[Chickengirl]

Lots of awesome thoughts here 

I agree with Grower - respect means being listened to, not simply dismissed because I happen to have a vagina 

I think James brings up an interesting idea though too - women have been socialised into believing that to be "successful" in a corporate society, we have to act the same way as men. We need to be tough, not let our emotions rule us, put up with bullying and harrassment, go for the throat etc etc  And when we do that, we are ball breakers, but if we don't, we are too soft...

Women ARE tough. We don't let our emotions rule us, but we are  generally wise enough to at least listen to what our instincts tell us. We put up with bullying and harrassment every day, via other people, the media, our education system etc that tells us we aren't smart enough, thin enough, young enough, beautiful enough. We DO go for the throat - If we need to.

But not always in the same way that men do, and not always in the same situations that men would.

It would be nice if people realised that being a woman is just fine thanks - that doesn't mean all reverting to some 1950s stereotype, but neither does it mean trying to convince ourselves and everyone else that we are just like men.

If women had the respect that every human deserves, we would be accepted just for being us - not pushed into being a reflection of a fantasy on a pedestal.

[Grower]

Really, when it gets right down to it, I'm a person. I don't know sometimes exactly what being a "woman" means. Maybe I'm weird. Once long ago when we were eating dinner with with the BIL and his wife, she got up to go to the bathroom and everybody looked at me. I was like, "What?" She asked me, then, if I would like to go to the bathroom, and I said, "No." Only later did my husband think that was odd. He thought all women went to the bathroom together! Only then did I get it. I was SUPPOSED to go, and was probably being rude not to, but I just don't THINK like that.

Guys who puzzle and puzzle over "women" make me sort of chuckle. Freud famously asked, "What do women want?" We didn't fit his theory very well. The Electra Complex never really took off. The answer is so simple he missed it. "Women" are people and they want what PEOPLE want.

I know there are gender differences, what with brain chemistry, physiological differences, etc. But there is SO MUCH MORE in common than different. And within gender, there are tons more differences. Gender is a sliding scale, not an either/or. And I think the best men are people first and men second.

So if somebody thinks I'm not being "feminine," I don't even know what that means, for me. I'm just me.

[zenobia]

Jim - you bring up a very important point. 

I think, however, that you aren't getting the "whole" piece of this.  I think it is hard for many women to use their "old" power of femininity because those of us raised as feminists or who became feminists often feel uncomfortable with our "feminine" power.  It is something I have reclaimed in the past few years as I have come to understand how truly powerful women can be.  It's weird.  It's why hot pink is my favorite color now.  I am in touch with my inner Barbie (with power tools).  I have embraced my love for Hello Kitty.

It is why I had no problem putting on a tight, low-cut t-shirt when I took my truck to get its annual inspection at the local gas station (when it still existed).  Fred and Dexter would be so flustered and distracted by my cheeky bosoms that they would charge me $5 and give me a sticker even with a taillight out (they also knew I would go home and fix it ASAP).  My husband often remarks that it is a really good thing (especially for him) that I had no idea how attractive I was when I was younger.  Guys still flirt with me even now that I am old, fat, and gray - and now I notice this - I NEVER had any idea before.  When I would go and pick my (future) husband up at the Academy, there would be 25 guys (who I thought of as friends) waiting to see me and it would piss him off.  When we broke up briefly just before we got engaged, he reconsidered after four or five of them came up to him and asked if he would be offended if they asked me out.  I didn't learn about this until a couple of years ago.

Of course, now I am much more comfortable in myself and I am very aware of the power I have - and yes, it is sexual power.  I can guarantee that I can get my husband to do ANYTHING if I ask at the "right" time.  Of course, I tease him that I respect him too much to use sex to get what I want.  We BOTH know that I can do whatever I want anyway, but I respect him as my partner/love of my life/best friend not to make a mutual agreement about something that affects us both.

Well-educated, modern, liberal women are uncomfortable IMO acknowledging this power.  As much as I love Grower, I disagree with her post that gender doesn't make THAT much of a difference.  Grower, I think you totally underestimate the feminine power you have!  You are smart, beautiful, and accomplished - and it reflects in the power that you carry within yourself and that you are completely comfortable with - you don't realize how 'womanly' you are.  Having spent some time with you, the contrast between the power that you have and the power that, for example, my husband has, is completely different.  That doesn't mean that one of them is "Better" than the other - they are just "Different".  My husband has power through his personality, his training, and his experience, as Grower does.  He just expresses it differently.  I have seen officers senior to him rise when he walks into a room - those of you in the military know this just doesn't happen.  My husband can jack you up against the bulkhead - if he wanted to - and make you pee in your pants.  But he doesn't choose to do this, and if you met him in normal life, he would just seem like a really nice guy.  But he only yells if someone's life is in danger.

I think a major reason this is is because women like us want to be "fair" and we want to be respected for our brains and talents and not for our big tits or nice ass or pretty face.  We also don't want to take the completely cynical approach of using our physical attributes to "get what we want" either.

And here's another thing, why I want to take back as positives words like cunt, pussy, tits, et. al.  I think men use these terms derogatorily (usage?  sp?) because they are afraid of feminine power and they KNOW we can USE sex to get what we want, IF WE WANTED TO.  I think that our sexual power/attractiveness is a wonderful thing and while I was uncomfortable with it as a young woman, I sure as hell am not uncomfortable with it now!  Of course, I try to be tasteful and use it properly - LOL!

So, in short, I want to RECLAIM the power of femininity and womanliness.  I ALSO want women to be able to yell and scream and wield power when necessary as shrieking feral she-bitches WITHOUT being put down and dismissed for doing so.  I ALSO want men to be comfortable using their manly wiles (in a kilt of course) as a persuasive tool of power in a fair and thoughtful way - not that I am explaining this as clearly as I wish I could.

Flame away!

[Grower]

Beautiful post, Zen. I think about this stuff.

And I do have great tits.

[Green2Go]

LOL Grower and Zenobia.
This is a great thread and very timely
I think I've always had two personalities.  I grew up a tom-boy playing with matchbox cars and building tree-houses.  But, I also played with dolls and dressed up my kitty.  To this day I can dig in the garden and squish bugs without going "eeewww."  I can kill varmints of any kind if I need too.  But I can also dress up, do my hair and nails and make a few heads turn.  I feel good in both conditions.  I think it's confidence.  Do what you do and be confident.  I was considered VERY shy when I was growing up -- even into my high school years.  Now...I've seen so much and learned so much that shyness has almost faded away.  My face still gets red --- often.  Sometimes I say things and I make myself blush.  

And like golddust, I'm very passionate when I have deep discussions.  My voice goes up a bit and it's not about trying to shout my opinion into somebody, I just get excited about the subject -- whatever that subject may be.

I don't try] to be feminine or masculine.  I am who I am. 

[Annie Okra]

Great thread, doomer ladies (and gents!)  I'm gonna toss this log on the fire ~

What if a more nurturing  i.e. "female" take on life is required to thrive post Industrial society clusterf*ck? What if a perversion of the male sense of dominion (by both genders) is what is the problem? What if misogyny was itself a symptom of a psychosis that many if not most of modern people are suffering from, which is perpetrated by the dominant society?

It seems to me that the business of women, biologically speaking at least, is to nurture and protect new life. This translates in a heightened sense of the possible, the creative and the tenderhearted. The business of males is to protect, provide and defend when necessary. In a culture that is sane, namely, a preindustrial culture, even as recent as the artisan guilds of medieval Europe ~ but more like the Native Americans and Indigenous Australians ~ wars would be more like small tribal skirmishes, quickly settled by duels OR tiny battles. Harmony being more conducive to trade and quality of life, and the dominant values being more humane (valuing of Earth, Life, Women, Children and Peaceful Harmony) skirmishes would just take care of themselves.

I have just read a book which I encourage you to check out, it is called Columbus and Other Cannibals by Jack Forbes.

CANNIBALS is focused upon my use of the Native American concept of the “Wetiko” psychosis, the disease of cannibalism. I believe that the exploitative consumption of the earth, the living creatures of the earth, and, above all, other human beings and their homelands, constitute actual, real, unmitigated cannibalism. Tragically, the cannibalism of which I write has become more and more an acceptable part of modern economic and personal exploitation, with those who do the consuming giving little or no thought to the diminishing or even elimination of the lives of those at the receiving end of their quest for profit and super-sustenance.

But CANNIBALS is not simply about the mental disease that has infected so many of the powerful on the earth. If that were the case, it would be a vital exposure of the evils of rabid consumption, but it would provide no answers or any antidote.

It has been my intention that CANNIBALS, instead of dwelling solely upon the evils of violence, aggression and one-sided economics, should offer insight into the ancient spiritual philosophies of Native Americans and contrast the core of Indigenous beliefs and actions with the “empire-building,” “getting bigger,” “more and more” notions which have come to dominate many churches, religions, nation-states, corporations, groups, and even individuals and their families.

  - Jack Forbes
~~
As far as respect goes, I think my experience as a female in American in the 20th and 21st century is pretty typical. Dad didn't teach his daughters any valuable survival skills (fishing, hunting, forestry, plant craft,  boatcraft - all of which he was very skilled with) and overtly mocked and ran down women at every opportunity. He wasn't evil, he was the product of his training.
"Put 'em in their place" an attitude very similar to racism (which is of course sexism).  Double standards abounded in the workplace and social life.
The response of the "women's movement" was to emulate the deranged attitudes of mentally ill men ~ be "free" to be a serial sex addict, profane and abusive manager, ruthless business cutthroat and so on. I saw what being the first female State Trooper in my home state of Oregon (haven' t lived there for 30+ years hover) did to my little sister and it wasn't a pretty sight.
~~~

[mtlouie]

Really, when it gets right down to it, I'm a person. I don't know sometimes exactly what being a "woman" means. Maybe I'm weird. Once long ago when we were eating dinner with with the BIL and his wife, she got up to go to the bathroom and everybody looked at me. I was like, "What?" She asked me, then, if I would like to go to the bathroom, and I said, "No." Only later did my husband think that was odd. He thought all women went to the bathroom together! Only then did I get it. I was SUPPOSED to go, and was probably being rude not to, but I just don't THINK like that.

Guys who puzzle and puzzle over "women" make me sort of chuckle. Freud famously asked, "What do women want?" We didn't fit his theory very well. The Electra Complex never really took off. The answer is so simple he missed it. "Women" are people and they want what PEOPLE want.

I know there are gender differences, what with brain chemistry, physiological differences, etc. But there is SO MUCH MORE in common than different. And within gender, there are tons more differences. Gender is a sliding scale, not an either/or. And I think the best men are people first and men second.

So if somebody thinks I'm not being "feminine," I don't even know what that means, for me. I'm just me.

Yes!  And I'm totally with you on the bathroom thing.  WTF? 

[Green2Go]

Now that makes me go "eewwww"

[golddust]

And like golddust, I'm very passionate when I have deep discussions.  My voice goes up a bit and it's not about trying to shout my opinion into somebody, I just get excited about the subject -- whatever that subject may be.

I don't try] to be feminine or masculine.  I am who I am. 

Me too. When it's an argument I don't yell much. My demeanor turns flat and I get very cold and matter of fact and become dismissive. My voice is not loud, but harsh.  When I'm excited or having fun, I just talk loud. And get louder as it goes. So you'll know when I'm mad and arguing and just simply talking loud.

I try to be balanced. I have alot of masculine in me, but I really love being a woman and tapping into what I consider a feminine power and feminine qualities. Though being feminine still sounds like an abstract concept.

[golddust]

So, in short, I want to RECLAIM the power of femininity and womanliness.  I ALSO want women to be able to yell and scream and wield power when necessary as shrieking feral she-bitches WITHOUT being put down and dismissed for doing so.  I ALSO want men to be comfortable using their manly wiles (in a kilt of course) as a persuasive tool of power in a fair and thoughtful way - not that I am explaining this as clearly as I wish I could.

Flame away!

I love your entire post, but I wanted to comment on this.

I was talking with some of my menopausal women friends about getting in touch with our anger and power surges. I'm not even close to being menopausal so I think it has less to do with hormones and more to do with finding your power and I've noticed it's around that time that women in society really get in touch with theirs. (I think it should be much, much sooner). But we all have these sudden bright flashes of anger that comes down swift and hard like a lightening bolt, and scares the living hell out of anyone else around. It dissipates quickly as well, and doesn't go on for hours as seething anger or days as a grudge or drag out for months as resentment. It's there, it gets the job done, and it's over. Everyone is hiding and we're thinking, "What's the big deal?"  The conclusion is, our society either suppresses anger or encourages it to be harmful. Few learn to wield it effectively or fairly. It winds up being abusive or neurotic and a tool of manipulation and emotional blackmail. So our way of doing it is absolutely foreign and misunderstood.

[MEA]

Maybe the reason that wome women are comfortable with getting in touch with power and rage when they are menopuasal is that we know on some level with have less to loose. By and large (I'm an  exception) we've raised our children to a point where they don't need us as much, or have settled on being childless or childfree, depending how we look at it, so we don't have to worrry about them as much. We are either settled with a partner who isn't about to up and leave us, or we've been dumped, and delt with it, or done the dumping, or are happily singling, or comfortable enough with ourselves that we aren't going to worry about scaring off potentional mates by being ourselves. (I'm using we beucase with the one exception noted about, we included me -- I understand there are women out there who'd not put themselves in one or more of these groups.

In other words, if we drive the alpha-male ape shit by our attitudes, it might just be good for him.

[golddust]

think James brings up an interesting idea though too - women have been socialised into believing that to be "successful" in a corporate society, we have to act the same way as men. We need to be tough, not let our emotions rule us, put up with bullying and harrassment, go for the throat etc etc  And when we do that, we are ball breakers, but if we don't, we are too soft...

Once upon a time that was me. I shudder to think of it now, but where I come from (mentally, not geographically) being an empowered woman essentially meant acting like a man. This was women's liberation, I was told. That was the face of a strong woman. To fit in with the men and be accepted as one of them.

Notice that in this scenario, being a woman is still being judged by male standards and male acceptance into "their" world. I still have to do what they want and serve them to be a good successful and strong girl. It's a modern twist on a really old idea.

But a strong woman doesn't deny herself her own personality and emotions. She doesn't pretend to be something she isn't so she can fit in and be accepted. A strong woman doesn't try to get acceptance and approval from anyone but herself. A strong woman doesn't deny that for one week out of every month for about 30 years, she has special needs and a strong woman doesn't suppress those needs and pretend periods doesn't exist. She also doesn't just try to hurry up and get over the messy business of babies for the purpose of returning back to this so she doesn't lose respect and her edge in her career for taking time off to give life to another human being.

In short, a strong woman doesn't deny her entire womanhood. Strong women embrace what it is to be a woman in ways that are true to themselves and need no approval or permission.

But that's what I did for awhile, until it was just killing me emotionally and choking me spiritually and I quit. I've found far more power on my spiritual path than I ever would have in that world. In a cut-throat environment, the only one that ultimately ends up bleeding to death over it is me.

[golddust]

In other words, if we drive the alpha-male ape shit by our attitudes, it might just be good for him.

ROFL.

I just do not engage the alpha male unless necessary. If they force me to tangle with them, I will come at them with teeth and claws bared and show absolutely no mercy. But 99% of the time I choose to cripple them by not even acknowledging their "power" because a puffed up chest, a threatening stance and an overinflated ego is not what power really is. Laughing at them and dismissing them is about the worst thing you can do to them. It seems so passive, but you're telling them they have no authority and that burns their ass up. An ex-friend attracts alpha males likes flies to shit. Guess which friend of hers they most vehemently hated and tried to make her stop seeing? 

[MEA]

I've just decided there are 2 sorts of alpha males -- the ones described above, whom I'll call psudo-alphas -- and the other sort (and there are female alphas like this) who just keep quiet, sit in the back of the room, and when TSHIF, and are able to take charge effectlively, and while they may be be card carrying feminists, don't just assume that women aren't worth of respect beucase they are women. No point in trying to make them apeshit -- they tend to have too much a sense of huimor about themselves to fall for it.