Business: The New Liberal Art

[mes228]

Just my opinion and it's subject to change. From the vantage point of having 5 children and raising 4 to adulthood. I am pretty much in despair that the three older ones have college degrees. All three have been laid off by various employers for about 3 months. Not one has a job. All three have 4 year degrees and one has 3 degrees. All owe college loans. On the other hand my 18 year old joined the Air Force. He has gone from a 24/7 video playing - sleep all day kid. To a focused adult in short order. He is physically fit, healthy, and employed. With a total compensation package that exceeds $35K from day one. With about 18K paid in cash from day one. Even a career if he chooses to stay in. I've been told that his particular field in civilian life would start at about 140k and several Gov't agencies fall all over themselves to hire from this field. Although I hate war, I honestly have to say I wish my other children had gone into the Air Force (not the Army or Marines).He loves it. In fact every young person I've met in the Air Force loves it. I may change my mind later but at the moment I'd say it's a better choice than a useless degree. By useless I mean a degree that cost a fortune yet does not make one employable. Just my experience in child rearing.

[boiler_92]

I have three payments left on my student loan.  Jan 24, 2010 is the last. 

Been a LONG time coming.

[Unconventional Ideas]

They were some of the best years of my life.

I'm encouraging my son to do an ROTC scholarship to become an Air Force scientist.  His major is to be chemistry.

[robert1352]

You know I started a thread some time back called "worthless degrees" and this topic is sort of what I was talking about. I guess what I'm trying to say is that some degrees are so general and watered down that you can go through the whole course load and not really learn how to do anything except go to class. I completed a bachelors degree in accounting, and I recently discovered that the local vocational school offers the exact same degree with the same courses, but its cheaper and  only takes 2 years to complete ,also they set you up with an internship. I thought that since I was getting a bachelors degree from a 4 year college that I was going to get a more complete education turns out that all I really got was lots of student loan debt.

[Librarian]

i'm afraid that in the U.S. anyway, we've come to use "college" the same way we used mandatory 12-year public "education"...to keep young people out of the work-force a bit longer, to further sort out who is going to be at what level of power, and to make certain that "everyone else" knows how to follow orders, and if possible has a big-ass debt-load to keep them in line.

i don't like it. it pays my salary now, and i still don't like it!

there is great human value to the "liberal arts" but you ought to be able to learn most of that on your own at the public library, online, in groups or on forums. you should not have to pay for it.

you need some history, poly sci, economics, etc., if you are going to be a responsible voting citizen in a Democracy, but again--precious little of that gets taught at any level in school anymore.

the whole outcome is really depending on the student. you can go almost anywhere and make something happen from it, and you can skate through an ivy league and end up with nothing but debt.

it took me *forever* to pay off my loans...i could have done it differently, and i generally wish that i had. but would i go back and NOT do it at all? NO WAY. i paid for an education...and i got one, although most of it happened OUTSIDE the classroom and for years after! i paid to get "out" and that is, in the end, what i got.

YMMV.

[Unconventional Ideas]

and people will find it through local options.

Charles D. Hayes has several books about this concept including "Self-University," and a new one next month called "September University."

[Pivot]

i'm afraid that in the U.S. anyway, we've come to use "college" the same way we used mandatory 12-year public "education"...to keep young people out of the work-force a bit longer, to further sort out who is going to be at what level of power, and to make certain that "everyone else" knows how to follow orders, and if possible has a big-ass debt-load to keep them in line.

i don't like it. it pays my salary now, and i still don't like it!

there is great human value to the "liberal arts" but you ought to be able to learn most of that on your own at the public library, online, in groups or on forums. you should not have to pay for it.

you need some history, poly sci, economics, etc., if you are going to be a responsible voting citizen in a Democracy, but again--precious little of that gets taught at any level in school anymore.

the whole outcome is really depending on the student. you can go almost anywhere and make something happen from it, and you can skate through an ivy league and end up with nothing but debt.

it took me *forever* to pay off my loans...i could have done it differently, and i generally wish that i had. but would i go back and NOT do it at all? NO WAY. i paid for an education...and i got one, although most of it happened OUTSIDE the classroom and for years after! i paid to get "out" and that is, in the end, what i got.

YMMV.

I completely agree that most of the learning happened OUTSIDE, the classroom, and it continues right up to the present.

Here are some good books on EDUCATION

DEMOCRACY AND EDUCATION BY JOHN DEWEY
http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Education-Introduction-Philosophy-Classic/dp/144004497X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260996623&sr=1-1

ON EDUCATION BY BERTRAND RUSSELL
http://www.amazon.com/Education-Routledge-Classics-Bertrand-Russell/dp/0415487404/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

EDUCATION AND THE SOCIAL ORDER BY BERTRAND RUSSELL
http://www.amazon.com/Education-Social-Order-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415487358/ref=sr_1_31?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260996355&sr=1-31

CHOMSKY:ON DEMOCRACY AND EDUCATION BY NOAM CHOMSKY
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415926327/ref=sip_pdp_dp_0

TEACHING AS A SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITY BY NEIL POSTMAN
http://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Subversive-Activity-Neil-Postman/dp/0385290098/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260996512&sr=1-1

SCHOOLING IN CAPITALIST AMERICA BY HERB GINTIS, AND SAMUEL BOWLES.
http://www.amazon.com/Schooling-Capitalist-America-Educational-Contradictions/dp/0465072305]http://www.amazon.com/Schooling-Capitalist-America-Educational-Contradictions/dp/0465072305[/url]