The grandchild from hell!

[pamela]

He kept throwing toys and finally after asking him several times to stop, his grandfaher gave him a couple of swats on the butt and made his sit on the couch for ten minutes. 

Is that legal in the US? In many European countries you could get prosecuted for that.

But of course the child would need pro-active/guiding discipline before reactive/punishing discipline, something the parents should give the children.

The kids are like that because it is illegal in may states in the US.  I never hit my son, but I gave him limits and never deviated from those limits.  I got custody of my son when he was 6 and raised him by myself for many years until I remarried.  We had world class fights when he was a teenager because of the limits, but I never gave in.  The key is consistency.  BTW, he is 35 now and my best friend.

bravo swampman!
it takes a lot of time and patience doesn't it.

[wordnerd]

I was trying to stay out of this ....
To me it sounds like all 3 need to "change their way of thinking" - lol
The parents
The grand parents
and the child
The parents need to have prepared the child better for a stay somewhere else - and to have shown the grandparents what the child likes to do , and how they discipline the child - even leaving him for short visits first.

The grandparents needed to realise the child was "sad and scared" about being someplace else - without his parents. Having things for the child to do that he likes to do. Spending lots of time with him. Children tend to "do" - whatever you pay attention too. Yes, it takes a lot of time - but better to spend that time in positive interactions rather than negatives ones. Just using "punishment when you haven't really established a good positive relationship - doesn't work out too well. As demonstrated by what happened.
The child is a 3 year old - AND a CHILD. He is expected to act up. But the child does need to learn better ways of showing his fear - and of asking for what he needs. But because he hasn't learned that yet -it  is not his fault. That is the responsibility of the parents. And as I said, one of the first things they could have done was to have short visits first, maybe let the grandparents know what the child likes to "do" and to eat!

But criticizing someone's "parenting" - is like going into a beehive unprotected!!

The main things I can say is
positive attention
limits
consistency

Don't say "No" unless you are going to actually "DO" something about it.
I had very few rules - but the rules I had were ones that when they were not followed - and 'did something about. Time out - taking away privilieges - even taking away a toy
When my son (at age 3) started his trick of slamming the door to his room when he was mad - I took his door off the hinges for a day. I didn't yell or fuss or go on and on about it. When I put it back on - I told him the next time it would be 2 days

The biggest problems I had with parents - are parents who only show attention when the child does something "bad", or who keeps saying "NO" or "Don;t do that" over and over - but then don't do anything about it
At age 3 - Doing something - would be "redirecting - giving the child something else to do. You need to not say "Don't do that" - but then let the child know what they CAN do.
If the behavior is really bad and redirecting doesn't work , Time out or taking away a privilege.

Now, I'll be quiet.

[fredd58]

The Tale of Jeffrey
I once saw a Bill Cosby monologue about 'Jeffrey' - a 4 y/o and a very frazzled mom on a redeye flight cross country. Jeffrey terrorized the entire plane full of passengers by running wild throught the aisles, screaming, laughing, talking non-stop, in-your-face behavior. His mother spent many long hours chasing Jeffrey around the plane, trying to calm him down, to no avail. Just before the flight landed, Jeffrey fell asleep, so an entire planeload of passengers took great delight in screaming "GOODBYE JEFFREY!" in his face til he woke up and started screaming again. Jeffrey and his mom were met by the dad, and Jeffrey's mom greeted him by punching him in the nose.  

Now I thought that was hilarious - til I made the MONSTER mistake of taking a short weekend vacation with a bunch of friends - all couples. The rule from the gitgo was 'NO CHILDREN.' Since it was only a 3-day weekend, we just wanted to relax a little, and no one thought having a large number of children around would be very helpful. Well, showed up to leave in the organizer's very large conversion van, only to find one couple with a 7-week-old baby (the ORGANIZER!!) and another with a 3 y/o boy and another with a 4 y/o girl. 2 hours into the ride, we knew we had made a HUGE mistake, because the 3 y/o boy was completely out of control. We stopped at a restaurant - first thing he did was knock over a huge carousel display of postcards. Before we finished eating (he ate nothing but sugar products) he had run out the front door twice, run full tilt into another table full of diners and food, and generally disrupted the entire restaurant. We were seriously considering trying to find a bus or train or even a cab that would take us home, but talked ourselves out of it.

On arrival at our destination, the parents of the 4 y/o immediately made arrangements for a separate cabin. The 3 y/o's behavior NEVER improved one iota. He tried his level best to dictate what was eaten, then refused everything that was fixed - his parents, usually his mother, would sneak around and give him junk food - the ONLY thing he would eat. He refused to sleep anywhere but between his parents. He repeatedly attempted to harm the baby so someone had to watch him with an eagle eye at all times - he would do really fun things like yank the pillow out from under the baby's head (hardwood floor) to watch the baby's head bounce. I personally caught him trying to shove a chicken bone into the baby's throat - already had it in the baby's mouth (baby was sleeping and mom was helping with dishes). Mom's reaction? Just shook her head and said his name in a mildly reproving tone. 

Return home trip was a repeat of trip down, only this time with much more frazzled nerves and tempers. It's a blooming miracle somebody didn't get into a fistfight. I had already told my wife about the Bill Cosby monologue in a private moment and we had a good laugh about it - one of the FEW from that weekend. Just before arriving to home base - you guessed it, the little terror fell asleep. I looked at my wife just as she looked at me, both of us dying to bust out laughing, but neither one of us said a word, just waited to see what this crowd of grownups would do on arrival. Sure enough, each and every one made double-damn sure this 'Jeffrey' got his good-bye wishes in FULL. Watching grown people take such perverse delight in waking a 3 y/o...I couldn't help it, at that point, I started laughing my ass off. The harder he screamed, the funnier it got - cause we knew we were leaving and he couldn't terrorize us any more. To this day, I can't remember his real name, he's just 'Jeffrey' to me.

[turnipgirl]

You know what- I don't think that observer did anytihng wrong- perhaps it's different parenting styles or whatever but I agree with her- there is absolutly no reason that a 3yo should not know how to behave.  All mine did- my sister's kids is 2 1/2 and he already says "yes mam" and "no thank you" and cleans up his toys.  The difference between my kids and my sisters and that little boy is just like other's said- dicipline, structure, and yes spanking when needed.  I'm not saying you need to beat the crap out of a kid- but sometimes a spanking is needed I don't care what anyone says- and some need spankings more than others- my oldest maybe got 3-4 when she was little, my son got more.  But both of them are now good to go until they get  hormones- the youngest still is a work in progress.

And what is wrong with not feeding kids once they don't eat what is already prepared?  I do the same thing- if you don't finish x,y,z meal then nothing else til the next one- if you do then you can have snacks.  I've done this with other kids too who were not mine- and by the third meal they understand the arrangement.  (sarcasm on) I think everyone should keep 5 kids under the age of 5 years for 2 weeks while your husband is on deployment (sarcasm off)

Even though I can take mine out in public and they know how to behave does not mean that others would enjoy watching them- my MIL does not like to babysit- she used to be a pre-school teacher even and she's earned the right to say no.  And you know what- that's fine, just because she's the grandparent does not mean she has too- and the fact she says no should be respected because she's earned that.

Observer did nothing wrong in my book other than calling names. 

[pamela]

[Bill Hicks]

The Tale of Jeffrey
I once saw a Bill Cosby monologue about 'Jeffrey' - a 4 y/o and a very frazzled mom on a redeye flight cross country. Jeffrey terrorized the entire plane full of passengers by running wild throught the aisles, screaming, laughing, talking non-stop, in-your-face behavior. His mother spent many long hours chasing Jeffrey around the plane, trying to calm him down, to no avail. Just before the flight landed, Jeffrey fell asleep, so an entire planeload of passengers took great delight in screaming "GOODBYE JEFFREY!" in his face til he woke up and started screaming again. Jeffrey and his mom were met by the dad, and Jeffrey's mom greeted him by punching him in the nose.  

Now I thought that was hilarious - til I made the MONSTER mistake of taking a short weekend vacation with a bunch of friends - all couples. The rule from the gitgo was 'NO CHILDREN.' Since it was only a 3-day weekend, we just wanted to relax a little, and no one thought having a large number of children around would be very helpful. Well, showed up to leave in the organizer's very large conversion van, only to find one couple with a 7-week-old baby (the ORGANIZER!!) and another with a 3 y/o boy and another with a 4 y/o girl. 2 hours into the ride, we knew we had made a HUGE mistake, because the 3 y/o boy was completely out of control. We stopped at a restaurant - first thing he did was knock over a huge carousel display of postcards. Before we finished eating (he ate nothing but sugar products) he had run out the front door twice, run full tilt into another table full of diners and food, and generally disrupted the entire restaurant. We were seriously considering trying to find a bus or train or even a cab that would take us home, but talked ourselves out of it.

On arrival at our destination, the parents of the 4 y/o immediately made arrangements for a separate cabin. The 3 y/o's behavior NEVER improved one iota. He tried his level best to dictate what was eaten, then refused everything that was fixed - his parents, usually his mother, would sneak around and give him junk food - the ONLY thing he would eat. He refused to sleep anywhere but between his parents. He repeatedly attempted to harm the baby so someone had to watch him with an eagle eye at all times - he would do really fun things like yank the pillow out from under the baby's head (hardwood floor) to watch the baby's head bounce. I personally caught him trying to shove a chicken bone into the baby's throat - already had it in the baby's mouth (baby was sleeping and mom was helping with dishes). Mom's reaction? Just shook her head and said his name in a mildly reproving tone. 

Return home trip was a repeat of trip down, only this time with much more frazzled nerves and tempers. It's a blooming miracle somebody didn't get into a fistfight. I had already told my wife about the Bill Cosby monologue in a private moment and we had a good laugh about it - one of the FEW from that weekend. Just before arriving to home base - you guessed it, the little terror fell asleep. I looked at my wife just as she looked at me, both of us dying to bust out laughing, but neither one of us said a word, just waited to see what this crowd of grownups would do on arrival. Sure enough, each and every one made double-damn sure this 'Jeffrey' got his good-bye wishes in FULL. Watching grown people take such perverse delight in waking a 3 y/o...I couldn't help it, at that point, I started laughing my ass off. The harder he screamed, the funnier it got - cause we knew we were leaving and he couldn't terrorize us any more. To this day, I can't remember his real name, he's just 'Jeffrey' to me.

fredd, I remember that Bill Cosby routine, great stuff.  Nowadays, when I get on a plane I thank God (and I'm and athiest  ) for my IPOD that drowns out the inevitable sounds of some out-of-control brat somewhere on the plane.  

And I can totally relate to the restaurant experience.  There is nothing more irritating that seeing kids at other tables act up like that when you are trying to enjoy a good meal.  And I know that being childless I'm not the best person to make that comment, but there ARE places like Chuck'E'Cheese and McDonalds you can take them to if they can't behave decently in public.  

[PostApocalypticTribe]

I trained my child the same way I train my dogs - minus the clicker. Positive reenforcement and set expectations. Tone of voice works wonders when you know how to use it. Spanking only makes the parents feel better (and I have done it, though it's less effective). I can think of twice I spanked my kid without even thinking about it. Once she was throwing a fit (at 2) and she bit me so hard I thought a chunk was coming out of my arm, that was her first spanking. Second time was at three when she ran out the door and almost made it to the street... anybody who makes me run will be getting a beating, anybody. Actually it scared me so bad I did it without thinking. She's had "swats" for other things but no real spankings. Mostly I give things for good behavior and take them away for bad behavior, time out gets used a good bit too. There never has been and never will be any name calling in my house. I just will not tolerate it. I do not expect my child to call me or anyone else names so I will not do it to her.

The only thing I think is horrible in the OP is that the grandparents can't stand their grandkid. That's pretty sad. Kids get swatted, we say things we shouldn't, life happens, but you only have one family and it should be a priority to try to like them... and it's your grandkids. I think that's the first time I've ever heard of a grandparent not loving their grandkids to death.

[Baldwin]

I took a few things into consideration.  The first is that the OP is a grandparent and of the old(er) school of child-rearing.  It had its merits.  I like it, none of these point charts, complicated time out arrangements, or anything else the TV nannies encourage.

The kid asked for a particular breakfast.  Grandma delivered.  Kid didn't eat.  Why should grandma make another breakfast? 

I'll admit that a good thwack on the arse is moderately satisfying for the parent, though the kid gets the message. 

Then the kid was harassing the 7 month old infant.  I can understand that being the last straw for a grandma and grandad that are by now emotionally exhausted and beleaguered.

I have some moderate admiration for the two here, for calling a spade a spade.  It's easy to call someone else's spawn a brat, but what about your own?  Just because they have some of your DNA, does not make them angels by default.  Now perhaps the family can go about improving the kid's behavior.

[ArmaGoof]

Having raised five children, all adults now, I can offer that there is no silver bullet approach to discipline.  Even with the same child, a particular technique may work one day, but not the next, and vice versa.

However, I always made it a point to never address the child, only the behavior.  I was never aggressive toward them.  *I* was raised like that and would be damned if I raised my children like that.  For me, the aggression didn't stop until one day my Mother came after me with a broom when I was 13 years old.  I took the broom from her, broke the handle, and using a tripping technique, laid her on the floor - not hard enough to hurt her physically, but she cried like I had many times.  She was never aggressive toward me again.


I had a lot of fun disciplining my children.  One can be quite creative.  Often these days, as I reminisce with them about their child hood, they always bring up one particular technique I often used as being the one that not only terminated bad behavior, but gave them the basis for moderation in all things to this day.  The technique is based on a quote I heard somewhere in college, I believe:

"A surfeit of the sweetest thing soon to the heart brings loathing."

I'll give a few examples based on how I might have handled the situations in the OP.

Kid kicks glass door.
Me:  Ummmm...sorry guy, that wasn't hard enough.  You barely made a scuff.  Kick it again.
Kid kicks harder.
Me:  Nope.  Not good enough.  You need to kick hard enough to put your foot through the glass and release blood from your toes.
Kid kicks even harder with no effect whatsoever.
Me: Look buddy, if you're going to be a door kicker, it takes a LOT of practice.  Keep kicking.
Kid kicks three more times, each losing enthusiasm.
Me: Faster! Harder!
Kid walks away confused as hell.

Kid won't eat whatever is prepared.
Me: Next meal, enough is prepared for everyone except him.
Kid: I'm hungry.
Me: No, everytime I give you food you won't eat it, so why waste it.
Kid: I'll eat it!
Me: No you won't.
Kid: Yes I will.
Me: Prove it.
Kid: I don't have anything to eat.
Me: What do you want?
Kid: Ice cream.
Me: How much ice cream?
Kid: A lot!!
Me:  You can't eat a lot of ice cream.
Kid:  Yes I can.
Me: Alright then, here's a half gallon.  Prove it.

Kid hits me.
Me: I'm sorry, I could barely feel that.  Could you please hit me harder?
etc. - much like the door.

Kid plays TV too loud.
Me:  Could you please turn that up - I can't hear it.
One hour later - I inform him that I had called him to dinner, but I guess he couldn't hear me because the TV was too loud.  It's all gone now.

It doesn't take long for over-encouraging bad behavior to make it click in the kid's mind.  My youngest resisted potty training until almost 3 years old.  I finally let her wear the same diaper for three days.  Believe it or not, without another word from me, she was using the potty herself on the fourth day.

I know, I'm weird, but it worked. 

[kathleen]

I love your ideas, ArmaGoof; I imagine that really does take the thrill out of misbehaving

[motherearth]

I shouldn't but I will,
Around here on a working farm, kids get spanked. Not often and only for absolutely the worst offenses, but they have got to know I mean it or they'll end up getting killed.

They have to know that you never ever no matter what go into the stallion pasture or out with the bulls or in with the cows after they have just calved.
My kids freeze when I say freeze.
They whoop back and come running from anywhere on the farm when I whoop from the house.
We are always complimented when we fly ( and now I know why).
Incidentally, before you assume I am an abusive monster, I read and play quietly the entire time I am flying and we do NOT use Benadryl.
If you aren't going to pay attention to your children and CARE for them...DON'T HAVE THEM!!

They are taught first, coached second and spanked third cuz in real life, you may not get a second chance.
mothearth

[Dasha]

Motherearth, good post

I flew with my kids a lot when they were young. My parents lived on the other side of the country and had the means to buy us plane tickets every couple of months.

It always required 4 or 5 hours of almost constant entertainment on my part. I knew that from the outset. I packed favourite toys and new toys and favourite foods and a pile of books and was fairly exhausted by the time that we arrived. But I also was always complimented on how 'good' my kids were. I do remember one time that I had packed a new book of cutout dolls and clothes that I was sure would be good for a couple of hours. Of course the security people took away my scissors (duh) and I couldn't convince them that that would really ruin my whole kid-entertainment plan. Ah well, we survived. The first time I flew without my kids after they were born was heaven. Really, I can just sit here and read or sleep? Really?

We did the same thing when we went to restaurants. Always took along lots of crayons, markers, paper. And we never went to Mcdonalds or those 'kid' restaurants if we could help it - they just encourage bad behavior I think ... all that junk food and stimulation. Even in the classiest restaurants, again my parents doing, we could count on our kids to not disturb the other customers. You can't expect your kids to sit there like little angels while you have pleasant adult conversation for two hours. You will actually have to interact with them some of the time. But having something for them to do helps a lot.

[Michelle]

LOL, what a great thread. (I'm currently dating a great guy with 3 year olds. Yes. Plural.)

I will say that kids, like adults, have good days and bad.


Cheers, M

[LuaHasFreedom]

Michelle, I didn't realize the twins were that young. Wowsers.

[MEA]

Speaking as the parents of two children with special needs, my first thought was does the 3 year old have a diagnosis?

MEA