The grandchild from hell!

[HungryRaven]

It depends on the child.  Some children are naturally more obedient and hardly ever need spanked  just a few words work.  My daughter is like that.   She would be the type of kid parents who brag about their discipline would no doubt be dealing with.   I doubt many of the bragging ones had a true animal to deal with.  I'm talking autism spectrum stuff or development delay which it seems many boys have naturally and need more time to become sentient.  

 With my son I just stopped going out in public areas like restaurants or movies until he got to about 5 years old.   If he was a total brat a smack on the butt would cause an enraged screeching attack.  Locking him in a room was the only solution and so the door was destroyed and several other things.   If he smashed something too bad he didn't get another but we had to find a solution to the non sentient irrational rages.   Spanking would escalate the problem instantly.  

Early childhood screening folks told us he needed early preschool behavior exposure or there was no way he would be ready for kindergarten by age 5.  So we took him and it was a whole class of boys and girls with some behavior or delay issue.  Despite this they were all sitting in a nice obedient little circle listening to a story.  My son?  Under a nearby chair in a cave structure growling ominously.  
He never did master the sit in a circle concept in that class.  The whole point was to start training kids to join in the group behaviors and he just wasn't ready.

The only discipline  that worked was 123 time out.  If behavior is bad you count outloud slowly to 3.  If the bad behavior has not stopped by time you reach three they go in time out in a boring spot like a corner.   The length of the time out is their age.  2 minutes, 3 minutes etc.  The timer does not start till the screaming and destruction stops and the child sits quietly.  It is such a short time out you think it would be worthless but they have to self calm first.  And then they get a couple minutes of controlling themselves.

 Afterwards I would cheerfully tell him why he was in timeout in case his rage blocked his memory.  He would have to say sorry maam or sir and proceed with his day.   Breaking the rule and giving him a long timeout like 15 minutes would ruin the magic of it because the child would lose trust that the timeout is a known entity.  Knowing it is short they are able to muster the power to self control which is what you wanted all along anyway.  In timeout there is no parental discussion with the kid.  Never name calling or humiliation.  

It worked for us.  After training at home so I knew I had the child controlled I could then enter a grocery store and many times he would start nonsense and I could easily and quietly time him out under a table or in a corner or just next to me on the floor while I shopped and to passing shoppers they  would not notice I had just reined in a monster they would just see a quiet boy sitting on the cold floor for a few minutes.   I still occasionally would have to just leave a store but I notice in cases like that he had gotten some sugar or some other factor was involved.

  Another way I found to stop outright enraged screeches would be to just hold him and say something like.  "You must be so tired are you having a hard day?  Sometimes then instead of a screech the tears would start while he tried to explain the upset. I would just acknowledge it with an "OK".  Sometimes within minutes like magic he would be cheerful and normal like someone flipped a switch once he was able to just say what was wrong.  

I still had a bad airplane flight cross country.  Both kids had a good time and had been fairly quiet with toys in their seats.  Then they fell asleep.  Then in the middle of the night the boy started shrieking in his sleep and kicking.  He kicked his sister in the head and then she started shrieking in her sleep.  Neither kid would wake up and neither would shut up.  I finally managed to get them both in my lap sitting upright and got them quieted down.  Then shortly after the plane started to land.  The seatbelt light lit up the stewardesses were strapped down and the plane was tilted to the ground.  My son chose that moment to go postal.  Screeching with deafening desperation that he had to use the bathroom.  He would not stop screeching and was deafening everyone.  Finally when the plane at least touched down but was still going down the runway I got up and escorted him the bathroom.  Of course a stewardess said "You cannot get up yet sit down!"  I was thinking are you crazy bitch you're other passengers are getting homicidal where I am sitting so we disappeared into the bathroom.  

Anyway when I hear other adults especially those with no kids comment about discipline I am like F**K OFF!  They have zero concept of what raising a boy like that is like.  If it was a discipline problem wouldn't my daughter be a problem too?    Still I have stepped back and let grandparents try their little ways on him.  Fortunately he usually has a few days  of  honeymoon period with new people.  Still they have encountered the spank him and get incredible hulk on your hands phenomenon.  Using their methods hours later there is still an upset crying boy on their hands.  Their methods would work great on normal kids but if they would shut the fuck up and do it my way he calms down in about 15 minutes and then usually become very contrite, embarrassed about his outburst and eager to please.  

Now that he is 8 years old he is pretty normal.  He stopped growling in school although he still needs a separate desk with boundaries to keep him from spending all his time playing with neighbors.   I hardly have to count to 3 anymore.  Sometimes  I do instant timeout with  no warning if he is bad.    Also if timeout is inconvenient I found that taking the toy from his hands and putting it in timeout works just as good at his age.   Now that he is older he has sometimes lost a cherished item for a whole day.    And now I can occasionally give him a swat on the butt if needed without activating an animal.   I replaced the smashed up doors and the smashed up TV and threw out the smashed toys and other items.  I still have a scratched computer screen but it still works.  He stopped destroying things finally.    

[quietnite]

Thanks for perking up my day, y'all. No matter how bad things are...my kids are 11 and 16. And I have absolutely NO contact with 3 year olds in my daily life.

I've noticed that different people do well with different ages. Man I can't stand 3 year olds.

[motherearth]

@Dasha   Reading an adult book on a plane...you made me laugh out loud!

@Hungry Raven:
Yes, the elephant in the nursery is hard.
My 5yr old has trouble finding her words and I have had to fine tune my parenting skills as she reacts to harsh words with a breakdown of crying , let alone any physical discipline.
I have to have her look me in the eye, take a breath with me and then move on.
Thank god she follows her older sister like a shadow and I rely on the older alot! We have funny rules like: if you see blood, run for mom. If one of you can't speak, run for mom.
It works. One time the littlest came flying up from the barn yard yelling. Her sister had slid down behind a big round bale ( @1500#) and couldn't get out.
She is a naughty little cup of tea.

Each to their own and who knows enough to judge another.
motherearth

[LuaHasFreedom]

Hungry Raven, your son sounds like my youngest daughter. I have a favorite saying: "I used to think my children behaved well because of me, so God gave me Laura." She was a hellion. I actually wrapped her in a sheet once and then tied her into a chair. Afterwards I was ashamed of what I considered my loss of control, but the simple truth was that I needed to protect her from herself, the house from her, and me from her kicks, bites, scratches, and head butts. I stopped trying to go anywhere for about five years.

The other side of the story is that besides having uncontrollable rages, she was a failure to thrive baby. At 15 months, she weighed 15 pounds, and was super short. People couldn't believe she was walking, she was so tiny. None of the doctors expected her to survive. She was allergic to every kind of food except breast milk. I kept her alive with nothing but nursing until she was about 3 and a half. Then she slowly started being able to keep food down.

I believe the two behaviors - uncontrollable rage and failure to thrive - were related. There was something wrong in the chemistry in her body and it came out in rage and vomiting.

Anyone looking at us from the outside - like someone watching me carry a screaming bundle of kicks and bites out of the grocery store - might very well imagine that the child came from a neglectful household. They wouldn't know that that same child did not have skin separation from me for the first two years of her life because she screamed without letup if ever away from me, that I was an exhausted, single parent of three children who never got a night's sleep because there is nothing as hungry as a two year old full time nurser, and that I never spanked her - not due to any belief structure (I did spank the older two occasionally) - but because she couldn't be spanked without going into outer space somewhere for days.

My two older children who were four and six when she was born did not even fight with each other until after they got into school and discovered how it was done (I didn't start homeschooling until my eldest was 11.) But that just goes to show ya' - the truth is usually hidden and no one has a right or reason to judge others.

[residualheat]

One time the littlest came flying up from the barn yard yelling. Her sister had slid down behind a big round bale ( @1500#) and couldn't get out.
She is a naughty little cup of tea.

I don't get that about the big round bale, motherearth. What am I missing?

It sounds like there are some good methods here and some interesting stories. I'm logging it all away for just in case.

I don't have children but quite like them and taught 4-8 year olds EFL for a few years. They were good kids on the whole, but the one class was 12 boys and four girls, aged 4-7, and they were like a herd of wild goats. All different stages of 'sentience' - LOL - they arrived stuffed full of sugar every day, five days a week, and one lad was so hyper he needed to carry a towel because he sweated and drooled so much.

To start with they ran me wild and it took a year of uphill effort to get them to behave. Like with parents, I had to use very strict rules about manners and behaviour but we also had plenty of treats, like playing games, watching cartoons in English and going to the park to use the play ground equipment. There would be occasional fights to sort out and the boys always had to apologise for being vile to each other and then shake hands and make up. At the end of class, they had to line up at door and say 'goodbye teacher' before filing out calmly. I was like a cross between a drill sergeant and Mary Poppins. God, it was hard work. It was like you need 20 pairs of eyes and ears. If I had actual children of my own I think I'd be worn to a husk.

So, having had an inkling of what goes on, I admire anyone that brings their children up well and can also understand that sometimes it's just too much. I don't think I could have done it.

[Observer]

Thanks for all your comments..........errr some well, not so much.

My husband and I are not going to keep him anymore.   I never imagined a child would deliberately try to hurt another child.  We just don't have the energy to deal with that issue.  It's Tuesday and my nerves are still shot.

I keep the other grandchildren and have absolutely no problem.  My husband raised three and I raised two of our own so the message to our kids is this:  "If everyone has fun and it works out, then we will be happy to babysit when we can.  If it is utter misery for everyone involved, then sorry, no". 

When you are older, you know you just can't fix everything. 

[Dasha]

I never imagined a child would deliberately try to hurt another child. 

You sure didn't grow up with my two brothers!

[gin]

you can't even try to discipline a child who is ill-disciplined in a weekend..
the parent's knowing how he is did you a 'insult' asking you to care for him..
it says more about the disrespect the parents have for the grandparents and
I'd question that relationship rather than your relationship with the child.. he's 3..

in no way was this the child's fault.. get it out of your mind that he is 'mean' or
that there is anything wrong with him.. blame the parents x 2.. firstly for the lack
of proper parenting.. secondly irresponsibly handing over an out of control child..

next time they ask say no thank you.. be sweet and kind to the child.. but never be mean  

[wiccawench]

I never imagined a child would deliberately try to hurt another child.

a lot of the kids at pre-school and kindy are all quite good at it actually..... they soon learn social boundaries.

besides a nine month old baby and a 3 year old...... that is so normal it isn't funny.

It is called sibling rivalry. I wonder if expectation theory in action was in fact because of the difference in attentiveness between the baby and the toddler?

Seriously...... again i ask did you take ANY delight in this child at all for the whole weekend? was there not any saving moment?

It sounds like a power struggle. 

[houseoftang]

Kid won't eat whatever is prepared.
Me: Next meal, enough is prepared for everyone except him.
Kid: I'm hungry.
Me: No, everytime I give you food you won't eat it, so why waste it.
Kid: I'll eat it!
Me: No you won't.
Kid: Yes I will.
Me: Prove it.
Kid: I don't have anything to eat.
Me: What do you want?
Kid: Ice cream.
Me: How much ice cream?
Kid: A lot!!
Me:  You can't eat a lot of ice cream.
Kid:  Yes I can.
Me: Alright then, here's a half gallon.  Prove it.

My dad did that with me once.  I wanted a junk food dinner, so we bought a bunch of chips and Cheetos and such.  I ate some, and realized I couldn't eat that much, and stopped.  Lesson learned. 

[LuaHasFreedom]

I have never forgotten my tenth birthday. "But, Mother, it's MY birthday cake! Why SHOULDN'T I get to eat as much as I want? whine, whine.  And so she did. I ate (with great delight) 1/3 of a double layer cake, white inside, chocolate icing.

I still remember the stomach ache. It lasted a LONG time.

[Mr. Bones]

This post is great birth control. 

[mtlouie]

Having raised five children, all adults now, I can offer that there is no silver bullet approach to discipline.  Even with the same child, a particular technique may work one day, but not the next, and vice versa.

However, I always made it a point to never address the child, only the behavior.  I was never aggressive toward them.  *I* was raised like that and would be damned if I raised my children like that.  For me, the aggression didn't stop until one day my Mother came after me with a broom when I was 13 years old.  I took the broom from her, broke the handle, and using a tripping technique, laid her on the floor - not hard enough to hurt her physically, but she cried like I had many times.  She was never aggressive toward me again.


I had a lot of fun disciplining my children.  One can be quite creative.  Often these days, as I reminisce with them about their child hood, they always bring up one particular technique I often used as being the one that not only terminated bad behavior, but gave them the basis for moderation in all things to this day.  The technique is based on a quote I heard somewhere in college, I believe:

"A surfeit of the sweetest thing soon to the heart brings loathing."

I'll give a few examples based on how I might have handled the situations in the OP.

Kid kicks glass door.
Me:  Ummmm...sorry guy, that wasn't hard enough.  You barely made a scuff.  Kick it again.
Kid kicks harder.
Me:  Nope.  Not good enough.  You need to kick hard enough to put your foot through the glass and release blood from your toes.
Kid kicks even harder with no effect whatsoever.
Me: Look buddy, if you're going to be a door kicker, it takes a LOT of practice.  Keep kicking.
Kid kicks three more times, each losing enthusiasm.
Me: Faster! Harder!
Kid walks away confused as hell.

Kid won't eat whatever is prepared.
Me: Next meal, enough is prepared for everyone except him.
Kid: I'm hungry.
Me: No, everytime I give you food you won't eat it, so why waste it.
Kid: I'll eat it!
Me: No you won't.
Kid: Yes I will.
Me: Prove it.
Kid: I don't have anything to eat.
Me: What do you want?
Kid: Ice cream.
Me: How much ice cream?
Kid: A lot!!
Me:  You can't eat a lot of ice cream.
Kid:  Yes I can.
Me: Alright then, here's a half gallon.  Prove it.

Kid hits me.
Me: I'm sorry, I could barely feel that.  Could you please hit me harder?
etc. - much like the door.

Kid plays TV too loud.
Me:  Could you please turn that up - I can't hear it.
One hour later - I inform him that I had called him to dinner, but I guess he couldn't hear me because the TV was too loud.  It's all gone now.

It doesn't take long for over-encouraging bad behavior to make it click in the kid's mind.  My youngest resisted potty training until almost 3 years old.  I finally let her wear the same diaper for three days.  Believe it or not, without another word from me, she was using the potty herself on the fourth day.

I know, I'm weird, but it worked. 

I love you, Arma!!  You need to go into parent counseling FOR SURE!!!   


Vagabones-  AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT!!! 

[motherearth]

whoops, sorry residualheat...
A round bale is a large bale of hay that has been cut and then literally rolled up into a, well, a roll, like a jelly roll, and wrapped in a plastic netting. They weigh between 500# and 2000#, sit about 5-6 ft tall and the same across.
As farmers got more mechanized and had larger and larger numbers of livestock to feed, they started to use round bales instead of the small squares.
Last year we put up over a 1000 small bales, all by hand, handled at least three times. This year we copped out and did large rounds...30 bales that the tractors deal with.

Anyways, we stack ours three on the bottom , two on top of that and then put a single, so stacked in a pyramid. Stacks are 60 ft long or so and tarped.
The girls like to jump on the first layer and have made a fort on a single layer at the end of one of the stacks.
The 8yr old fell down between the bales and couldn't climb out.
I hope I explained that correctly. One picture would have been more effective, I think.

Don't flame, we do try to be as safe as we can, there are rules about climbing on the bales.
There was a farmer who was crushed to death by one as it flipped off the forks on the tractor last winter.

Like I said before, farming is dangerous.

[fredd58]

There was a farmer who was crushed to death by one as it flipped off the forks on the tractor last winter.

Like I said before, farming is dangerous.

After all these years, I STILL find it flabbergasting that dried-up, will-blow-straight-off-your-hand GRASS can be so heavy when it's in those huge bales!! Even picking up the small square bales gets downright painful after a while...put up 160+ bales in one marathon day this summer - all handled by me alone! Blech - paid for that one for days! Somehow I'm just not as young as I used to be - go figure...