Have question about heating my house this winter

[wordnerd]

As you all know my furnace does not work because of the flood in August. It needs a new circuit board, igniters and something else (?)
But I have a couple of problems
1) I'm not sure my basement won't flood again because the storm drain has not been repaired  - the one that runs under my street.
2) FEMA is reassessing whether it will help our city or not
3.) Money IS an issue
The furnace company says it will cost $900 to repair

What I'm thinking:
What if I bought one of those 1000 square ft.  electric heaters  - and then kept the fan on my furnace circulating the air (Yes, the fan still works)
And IF I were to buy an electric heater - which is best the Infrared heaters or the other kind. ?


I found one like this
this one is at Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=113621-70250-LW-SH2036&lpage=none

but the one I found cost $300 instead of  $499 (which is the price at Lowes)
Would it keep me warm enough - IF I circulated the heat through the furnace fan?
I don't care about being toasty warm - I just don't want to freeze or have my pipes freeze
 (my house is about 2790 sq ft. - and that includes the basement)
AND I live in southern Indiana

Or should I just pay the $900 - and hope my basement doesn't flood again 
Thanks

[Six Gun Jim]

I wrote you a response over on FB Word. I'll help you find an electric if you want to go that road too. You might have to front shipping but I can come up with one probably.

[gin]

have you looked at what it would cost per month to rent a furnace.. btw high efficiency
gas furnaces save a lot of money monthly over using electricity to heat such a large area..
 

[wordnerd]

Looks like I'm best off to wait a couple of weeks to see if FEMA replaces my furnace - if not - then get it fixed
Even if a demolition company can get me a used circuit board!!

[BigFatherA]

What if I bought one of those 1000 square ft.  electric heaters  - and then kept the fan on my furnace circulating the air (Yes, the fan still works)
And IF I were to buy an electric heater - which is best the Infrared heaters or the other kind. ?
I found one like this
this one is at Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=113621-70250-LW-SH2036&lpage=none

Not worth it even at $100!  First of all when looking at electric heaters the first thing to look at is the power cord.  "Plugs into standard 110v outlet"  Tells me one thing:  The maximum wattage is 1800 W.  Period.  1500 W if it meets the electrical code.  Any 1500 W electrical heater will produce the same amount of heat, as an electric heater is precisely 0% efficient (i.e. it turns all of the input energy into waste heat.  In this one case only [heating something] the waste energy is what you want), and there is no exhaust to lose the heat to.  1500 W is just over 5000 btu/h which is enough to heat an "ideal" 1000 sq ft house 12°F (~7°C) above the outdoor temperature.

I cann'a change the laws of physics, Jim...

[rdocr]

As you all know my furnace does not work because of the flood in August. It needs a new circuit board, igniters and something else (?)
But I have a couple of problems
1) I'm not sure my basement won't flood again because the storm drain has not been repaired  - the one that runs under my street.
2) FEMA is reassessing whether it will help our city or not
3.) Money IS an issue
The furnace company says it will cost $900 to repair

What I'm thinking:
What if I bought one of those 1000 square ft.  electric heaters  - and then kept the fan on my furnace circulating the air (Yes, the fan still works)
And IF I were to buy an electric heater - which is best the Infrared heaters or the other kind. ?


I found one like this
this one is at Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=113621-70250-LW-SH2036&lpage=none

but the one I found cost $300 instead of  $499 (which is the price at Lowes)
Would it keep me warm enough - IF I circulated the heat through the furnace fan?
I don't care about being toasty warm - I just don't want to freeze or have my pipes freeze
 (my house is about 2790 sq ft. - and that includes the basement)
AND I live in southern Indiana

Or should I just pay the $900 - and hope my basement doesn't flood again 
Thanks

Hi Wordy

Having faced your problem over the years, here is a book also Ebbok edition:

Home Energy Tips
Low and No-cost Solutions
To Energy Problems
In A
Power Hungry Culture
                   
Surviving:
High energy costs
Roving blackouts
Loss of power

How To
Reduce your energy usage
Have electricity during blackouts
Become energy efficient
Keep from becoming a Popsicle
Avoiding high energy bills
Live With It

Ralph W. Ritchie                   

[/b]

It took us fifty years to write this one.

LOL

Ralph

[Erin]

What if I bought one of those 1000 square ft.  electric heaters  - and then kept the fan on my furnace circulating the air (Yes, the fan still works)
And IF I were to buy an electric heater - which is best the Infrared heaters or the other kind. ?
I found one like this
this one is at Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=113621-70250-LW-SH2036&lpage=none

Not worth it even at $100!  First of all when looking at electric heaters the first thing to look at is the power cord.  "Plugs into standard 110v outlet"  Tells me one thing:  The maximum wattage is 1800 W.  Period.  1500 W if it meets the electrical code.  Any 1500 W electrical heater will produce the same amount of heat, as an electric heater is precisely 0% efficient (i.e. it turns all of the input energy into waste heat.  In this one case only [heating something] the waste energy is what you want), and there is no exhaust to lose the heat to.  1500 W is just over 5000 btu/h which is enough to heat an "ideal" 1000 sq ft house 12°F (~7°C) above the outdoor temperature.

I cann'a change the laws of physics, Jim...

+1 Absolutely right.

[turnipgirl]

have you looked on craigslist for a wood stove- out here on the site they run from $100 to $300 used- plus you have a heat source ready for doom time- shoot you can even slow cook on the top with a cast iron pot if you wanted to.

They also sometimes have furnaces- I took a look and just clicked on the top city
http://bloomington.craigslist.org/for/1464769006.html

[9anda1f]

Although in one respect I must agree with BigFatherA, in another you might consider an electric resistance heater to be nearly 100% efficient ... i.e., it converts nearly all the electrical input to heat.  However, his observation that 1500 watts heats an "ideal" (whatever that is) 1000 sq ft house 12 degress F above outside ambient is an excellent data point.

There is no good way to heat a house without the benefit of excellent insulation.  However, in reality you are not trying to heat the house, you are trying to heat YOU.  You are not out to rebuild your house, you are trying to stay warm THIS winter.  Towards that end, I have three of those 110 v plug-in oil-filled radiant heaters.  They heat by radiation and convection.  One under the table where I am working keeps ME warm, even if the house temperature is only 55.  I have one in the bedroom to keep it around 60, which is a nice temperature to sleep at.  One in the unheated bathroom to keep pipes from freezing.  I close down 2/3 of the house and only heat 1/3 during the winter.  I also have a wood-burning cookstove that only nibbles at the wood pile.  Truthfully, I need more insulation but these devices keep me warm during our quite cold winter months.

In your case, you might consider a couple of those oil-filled radiators in conjunction with a wood pellet stove.  The pellet stoves are very efficient, pellet fuel is fairly easy to deal with (~$225 for a pallet of 50lb bags) and a snap to install (they vent out the wall).  The only drawback with pellet stoves is they require electricity and won't work during power outages unless you have an alternate means (like solar panels/batteries/inverter or small generator) to supply the fans and auger.  Pellet stoves may not be the height of sustainability (takes energy to compress the pellets and more energy to ship them out), one might be a good answer for your immediate needs.  I've also heard of using cherry pits as replacement fuel for the pellets!

Good luck.  Let us know what you finally did!

[BigFatherA]

An "ideal" house is this:  minimal exterior surface (thus considered 31' square with 8' ceilings), covered with two doors and 12% of walls as windows.  For R-2000 the walls and floor are insulated to R-20 and the ceiling to R-40.  Doors and windows are R-3 or better ("energy star" windows).  Basically the best case for standard construction. 

I'm currently upgrading my house (SW Ontario, Canada) to R-30 walls and R-60 ceilings with a basement R-14 above the frost line.  And yes a woodstove is great.  (also works when the power goes out).

[9anda1f]

Ah, gotcha on the ideal house definition.  Thanks.  I like your version of ideal better than the definition!

I need to do much the same thing you're already doing.  House is stick frame 2x4 with fiberglass batt insulation, but the ~1x10 boards under the siding make it basically a slightly filtered sieve when it comes to air infiltration.  Thinking about removing the existing aluminum siding and installing foil-backed 2" foam panels all around with firring between each of the 4'x8' panels and sealing all the joints.  Affix new siding (don't know what yet) to the firring.  Closed cell foam boards around the basement foundation 4' down.  Doors would get new storm doors/weather stripping and windows would get another single pane on the outside while I extend the moldings (they're already double pane).  Vaulted ceiling would get 2" foam on the inside covered with new sheet rock.  Would seal infiltration, provide significantly more insulation while making the existing batts more effective and would replace the leaky aluminum siding with sealed siding of some sort (T-1-11??  What's a good siding for a climate with hot summers, cold winters, dry, and windy?  Fiber/cement board?).

I'd also like to build foam panel insulated single panel shutters for each window that hinge open from both the top and the bottom.  In summer they would hinge up to shade the windows and in winter they would hinge down to reflect sunlight deeper into the house and increase the solar exposure.  Would close tightly over each window at night to keep heat losses to a minimum.

And, I'm considering extending the closed cell foam insulation down and out away from the foundation to semi-enclose a mass of soil, kinda of a retrofit to the PAHS configuration.

I'd be very interested to hear what methods you're using in Ontario.  You have far worse winters than even I do.   

[BigFatherA]

Ah, gotcha on the ideal house definition.  Thanks.  I like your version of ideal better than the definition!

I'd be very interested to hear what methods you're using in Ontario.  You have far worse winters than even I do.   

The house I bought 10 years ago was built in 4 stages, from about 110 years ago to just after WW2.  It is a brick basement, balloon frame stick built house, 1100 square feet, with 8 - 10' ceilings (depending on which room you're in).  It had -NO- injsulation in the studs and basement, 6" (R-20) fibreglass in the ceiling (none in the sloping part of the roof in the kitchen and mudroom).  During the 80's someone insulated the house like yours, putting 2" styrofoam sheeting over the existing exterior, and then installing aluminum siding over top.  If I had unlimited funds I'd remove the siding and add tyvek housewrap (an exterior wind barrier). 

I decided to tackle the project from the inside.  I replaced all the (110 year old!) windows, gutted the interiors, studded out the walls to 4x6, and added R-22 Roxul.  Roxul is a bat insulation but made from rock wool instead of fibreglass.  It's advantages are:
1.  It is R-4 per inch.  Fiberglass is R-3.5 per inch, loose fill R-3 per inch.  BTW styrofoam board is R-4 per inch for the white stuff and R-5 for the blue stuff.  For some of the sloping ceiling I used urethane foamboard (R-7 per inch)
2.  It insulates even when wet.  Good for damp environments without the wind barrier)

THe ceilings were lowered to 8' and tied into the existing R-20 in the lower area.  We ended up stranding the old fibreglass bats in the high ceiling.  the lowest R value is R 56 (R-22 roxul, R-14 roxul, R-20 fibreglass) to R-66 (3 x R-22) depending on what fit in the space available.  The interior was air and vapour sealed by using 6 mil vapour barrier and tuck tape (a Canadian air sealing tape for completing air barriers), while openings are filled with expanding foam (expanding foam creates its own air barrier - you might want to use it to seal your siding).  I have added a HRV (code requires it with a woodstove here).  My next step is to finish the mudroom (last upstairs room), Foam in my headers to R-22 (I also have that 10" gap above the foundation walls).  For the basement I will either add 2" of urethane foam of R-14 roxul to new studs which will be adhered to the walls with acoustical sealant (of pressur-fitting sill gasket for an air seal)

[BigFatherA]

P.S.  with the insulation (so-far) and the wood stove (used evenings) my current gas use is 40% that of last year.

[rdocr]

There seems to be quite a few here using electric heat. Here are some pitfalls:

Electricity supply is subject to many failures, witness the great East coast blackout a few years back. That was systemic and I doubt that the experience changed their procedures very much.

Fuel for power plants is a touchy subject:
 
Coal has some bad atmospheric effects.
Fossil fuel is, well, that's why we are all here.
Solar is just getting started and is a tiny percent of the total.
Wind is just getting started, too.
Hydro has some problems during drought times. I took a good look at hydro when I wrote the Water Handbook recently. The Colorado River is not delivering enough water to continue having power from Boulder Dam and several western States are in trouble.for both water and power from there.

What this amounts to is that electric heating may not have a long time future.

Besides, you need a backup heat source to use if the power fails.

As for home insulation, your home should maintain about 20F over outside if it is properly insulated. That's from the book mentioned in the earlier blog.

A caution. Check the wire size to the outlets where you plug in an electric heater. Too small a wire could overheat them and cause fires withiin the walls- bad news. Beside, you cannot  use more than one heater at a time on one circuit- thats all of the plugs connected to a given circuit breaker or fuse.

You guys talking efficiency did not consider the efficiency of electric power delivery to the point of use. That's where the cost goes up, even in your home. The loss is I-squared times R ( resistance of the wiree. they are governed by the wire size and length. You pay a good portion of your electric bill to make up for power distribution losses.

LOL

Ralph

[9anda1f]

Thanks BigFatherA, you've done a helluva job.  Preventing air infiltration and loads of insulation is everything when it comes to staying warm.

And Ralph, I agree with everything you say.  Multiple sources of heat in a well insulated house is critical.  While my electricity is a mere 7 cents/KWh, my daughter in Alaska pays more than 10 cents/KWh!
Relying on a single source of heat for your home is a risky business ... sooner or later something will fail and you'll be cold.  I currently have three sources (wood cookstove, electric radiators, and oil forced air (at $3/gallon ... ugh!) and feel that I need to add at least two more in addition to beefing up my insulation.  Providing heat to a house is actually rather difficult when you think about it and points out the necessity of good insulation (y'all down in the warmer climates can pretty much ignore this thread, lol).

My ultimate goal would be to build a small, earth-sheltered home using the techniques outlined in PAHS (Passive Annual Heat Storage)  http://www.earthshelters.com/