State budget emergencies go nuclear: cancelled welfare, fired teachers, more

[Fitzwaryn]

we should care for all living things, not just the ones you think merit care.
if a dog is hungry, feed him.
if a bum is hungry, feed him.

that is all.

The next day dog will be back hoping for more.

50 bums will be at the door demanding their "rights" to the same meal you provided for the other guy and will tell all their friends.

And when you run out of food after spending your savings and selling your house to provide the food they will curse and damn you for not having more to give and someone will file a lawsuit for anything you have left because someone didn't get any food which means you discriminated against him.

(Forgot to add that somewhere along there the Federal Government files charges for running an unlicensed charity and violating federal regulations on food preparation, storage and handling.)

And after you lose everything the dog will still sit with you on the curb and be your friend.

[Broil]

I guess if you don't have religious or spiritual beliefs, Fitzwaryn, it wouldn't make a whole helluva lot of sense to spend time or money on hungry people, especially since many of them will take advantage of you.  But for those of us who do have such beliefs, compassion is the one common theme to be found in all the major religions - I suppose it must be so for a reason.

[thethirstmutilator]

And after you lose everything the dog will still sit with you on the curb and be your friend.

Or, if it's hungry enough, perhaps it will hunt you for food.
Just like an MZB.
Nothing is ever as clear-cut as it seems.

[Satori]

I guess if you don't have religious or spiritual beliefs, Fitzwaryn, it wouldn't make a whole helluva lot of sense to spend time or money on hungry people, especially since many of them will take advantage of you.  But for those of us who do have such beliefs, compassion is the one common theme to be found in all the major religions - I suppose it must be so for a reason.

Broil
go back and read some of Fitzy's posts
he is quite "religious"

[Fitzwaryn]

I guess if you don't have religious or spiritual beliefs, Fitzwaryn, it wouldn't make a whole helluva lot of sense to spend time or money on hungry people, especially since many of them will take advantage of you.  But for those of us who do have such beliefs, compassion is the one common theme to be found in all the major religions - I suppose it must be so for a reason.

Actually I agree with you completely.

I was making a facetious comment about the attitudes that have developed in many people these days and responding to what someone said earlier about people treating dogs better than they do people.

Generally because dogs treat people better than most people treat others these days.

Most of the folks in my rural community who have gardens pool the surplus from our gardens and take turns delivering it to local folks who don't have gardens, are elderly or don't have the extra income to buy a lot of fresh food. When one of us finds a good source of firewood, like some land being cleared we also collect firewood and deliver that to similar folks who can use it for heating.

Actions speak louder than words.

[Fitzwaryn]

I guess if you don't have religious or spiritual beliefs, Fitzwaryn, it wouldn't make a whole helluva lot of sense to spend time or money on hungry people, especially since many of them will take advantage of you.  But for those of us who do have such beliefs, compassion is the one common theme to be found in all the major religions - I suppose it must be so for a reason.

Broil
go back and read some of Fitzy's posts
he is quite "religious"

Actually I'm not near as religious as you probably think. I almost never speak about my beliefs except when directly asked. I prefer to let my actions speak for me.

However in an environment such as this I do tend to react strongly when there is such openly expressed intolerance, ridicule and malice directed towards those who do have religious beliefs.

[Satori]

I don't think anyone on this forum has any problems with someone's religious views
problems arise when someone tries to beat you over the head with it
especially when its the fundamentalist stuff
I've had so many bad experiences with organized religion ie. the fundamentalist type that
I keep it at arms length to protect my sanity

[AsterixChaos]

we should care for all living things, not just the ones you think merit care.
if a dog is hungry, feed him.
if a bum is hungry, feed him.

that is all.

There's a reason that I don't do much, if anything, to help the people around me any more. In the last six months, as an experiment, I gave money to ten different bums. They approached me with such tales as "I'm a Vietnam vet," (He was far too young) or "I need bus fare," (and asked for an amount well beyond the local cost of a bus) or "I'm hungry."  In each of these ten cases, I gave them a $5 bill, and then followed them. I thought it would be an interesting photography piece, detailing the decay of urban areas.

In all ten cases, they continued to ask people in the area for money. In five of the ten, they worked their way to the nearest bar or pub. In six of the ten, the beggar that I was tailing would meet up with one or a group of others, where they would pool their money and go to a bar together.  In one of the ten cases, I followed the beggar to a public toilet, where they changed clothes, got in their mercedes, and left. Two of the ten brandished weapons and threatened harm on me for following them.  This was well before the camera ever came out of its bag.

"You know Burke, I don't know which species is worse; you don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!"  -- Ellen Ripley, Aliens

When I see a dog who is hungry, I know the dog is hungry. When I have a bum tell me he is hungry, I assume that it's a lie, because it usually is.  You see, I've already PAID the bum. They already HAVE my money. So much of my taxes goes to social welfare programs that if they want money from me, if they want food from me--they can go to a shelter. My money already got them a roof, some food, and a safe place to sleep. In the two times in my lfie that I've been homeless, I always had a means of finding a secure place to stay, good food, and warm clothes--and not once did I have to beg.

I said all of that to say this:

we should care for all living things that merit care.
if a dog is hungry, feed him.
if a bum is hungry, chances are that it's a trick, and there's someone else that's better qualified to help, anyway.

that is all.

[Fitzwaryn]

I don't think anyone on this forum has any problems with someone's religious views
problems arise when someone tries to beat you over the head with it
especially when its the fundamentalist stuff
I've had so many bad experiences with organized religion ie. the fundamentalist type that
I keep it at arms length to protect my sanity

What seems to be more often the case is openly expressed hostility towards and ridicule of anyone who has any kind of religious beliefs. Read some of the threads I've been involved in and note level of anger, bitterness, insults and derision directed at anyone who expresses religious belief. It's not the religious individuals cursing at, being personally insulting and name calling in those threads. It's not the religious individuals telling people they are stupid and ignorant for believing as they do.

Just who is beating whom over the head with their beliefs and attitudes?

[Broil]

"So much of my taxes goes to social welfare programs that if they want money from me, if they want food from me--they can go to a shelter."  I never give money to people begging for it, giving time or money to a good shelter especially if they have a job program is the best thing to do if you want to help them.

[AsterixChaos]

Part of Arizona and CA's problem is that they must shell out a good portion of the 400 billion being spent anually to take care of illegals. More than 1/10 school students are children of illegals in AZ and CA.

They are CHILDREN you HEARTLESS FUCK!

Did they choose to be born here?  No.  If you want to be pissed about something, be pissed about a system of "free trade" that's bankrupted the US AND Mexico and forced people to face death and alienation in order to survive.

For the love of pete.  There are some people on here for whom the Fema camps can't come fast enough.

I'm going to have to stand up and be counted amongst the heartless fucks.  I've lived in Arizona. I worked in a hospital. These people, children or not, are a drain on the system, and just because they're under 18 doesn't make them any less capable of doing some very, very adult things. The people in Arizona pay a state tax in addition to their federal taxes, all to have shitty roads, shitty education, and just all around shitty quality of life. A ridiculous amount of the money spent in that state goes to paying for illegals using state and federal welfare programs, all while contributing nothing to it.

If someone brings a child into this world, it's their responsibility, not the burden of the rest of the population. What's being done by the illegals is (GASP!) illegal, and they should stop being REWARDED for it. The world is overpopulated, as it is.  Fuck 'em.

[Fitzwaryn]

There's a reason that I don't do much, if anything, to help the people around me any more. In the last six months, as an experiment, I gave money to ten different bums. They approached me with such tales as "I'm a Vietnam vet," (He was far too young) or "I need bus fare," (and asked for an amount well beyond the local cost of a bus) or "I'm hungry."  In each of these ten cases, I gave them a $5 bill, and then followed them. I thought it would be an interesting photography piece, detailing the decay of urban areas.

Yes that is the phenomenon I was referring to and I've encountered it too. I think these days anyone who tries to help others encounters it. Its hard to deal with and it's hard not to feel anger when you experience it.

I think it says a lot about the values that our society has adopted.

Those of us who deliver firewood in my community encounter it. A load of firewood cut by volunteers is delivered to a home and they stand and watch us unload it, get irritated when we won't carry some in the house for them or complain about the type of wood it is or that we stacked it poorly the whole time making no effort to help.

That doesn't change the equation though. Those who have a religious belief that call for them to help others have to temper their disdain for folks like that with their responsibility to help regardless.

Whenever I think about people like that I can't help but remember that Amish family last year. Their child was murdered and the murderer was killed by the police if I remember right.

The Amish family took up a collection for the family of the boy who committed the murder.

When I remember that I always feel ashamed of any anger or disdain I have for people like you mentioned and like I've encountered.

I don't know that it suggests a solution to the problem. I'm not sure there is a good solution until things reach the point where there is so little to give and so many to give to that hard and cruel decisions will have to be made and attitudes will change.

[Fitzwaryn]

"So much of my taxes goes to social welfare programs that if they want money from me, if they want food from me--they can go to a shelter."  I never give money to people begging for it, giving time or money to a good shelter especially if they have a job program is the best thing to do if you want to help them.

You're not alone in that and I admit freely that I often feel that way myself.

I couldn't help though but laugh when I read it since it reminded me of the scene in A Christmas Carol where Scrooge responded to an appeal for money to help the poor by saying something like "Aren't there poor house for the destitute. Aren't there workhouses enough?"

LOL

But yes. I think most of us feel that way these days.

"Charity taken from you by force is not charity. It's simply theft."

[Involuntary Simplicity]

Part of Arizona and CA's problem is that they must shell out a good portion of the 400 billion being spent anually to take care of illegals. More than 1/10 school students are children of illegals in AZ and CA.

They are CHILDREN you HEARTLESS FUCK!

Did they choose to be born here?  No.  If you want to be pissed about something, be pissed about a system of "free trade" that's bankrupted the US AND Mexico and forced people to face death and alienation in order to survive.

For the love of pete.  There are some people on here for whom the Fema camps can't come fast enough.

I'm going to have to stand up and be counted amongst the heartless fucks.  I've lived in Arizona. I worked in a hospital. These people, children or not, are a drain on the system, and just because they're under 18 doesn't make them any less capable of doing some very, very adult things. The people in Arizona pay a state tax in addition to their federal taxes, all to have shitty roads, shitty education, and just all around shitty quality of life. A ridiculous amount of the money spent in that state goes to paying for illegals using state and federal welfare programs, all while contributing nothing to it.

If someone brings a child into this world, it's their responsibility, not the burden of the rest of the population. What's being done by the illegals is (GASP!) illegal, and they should stop being REWARDED for it. The world is overpopulated, as it is.  Fuck 'em.

That part of the country is going to get REAL interesting when the Federal support dries up (and it will). MZB Alert!

[AsterixChaos]

Yes that is the phenomenon I was referring to and I've encountered it too. I think these days anyone who tries to help others encounters it. Its hard to deal with and it's hard not to feel anger when you experience it.

I think it says a lot about the values that our society has adopted.

Those of us who deliver firewood in my community encounter it. A load of firewood cut by volunteers is delivered to a home and they stand and watch us unload it, get irritated when we won't carry some in the house for them or complain about the type of wood it is or that we stacked it poorly the whole time making no effort to help.

That doesn't change the equation though. Those who have a religious belief that call for them to help others have to temper their disdain for folks like that with their responsibility to help regardless.

Whenever I think about people like that I can't help but remember that Amish family last year. Their child was murdered and the murderer was killed by the police if I remember right.

The Amish family took up a collection for the family of the boy who committed the murder.

When I remember that I always feel ashamed of any anger or disdain I have for people like you mentioned and like I've encountered.

I don't know that it suggests a solution to the problem. I'm not sure there is a good solution until things reach the point where there is so little to give and so many to give to that hard and cruel decisions will have to be made and attitudes will change.

The situation with the Amish family and the murderer's family are somewhat different, though. Here, they knew what the situation was, and how and where they could offer charity that would be effective and welcomed. When someone reeking of stale urine, beer, and sweat slurs to me that he needs "t'buy'uh'sammich," or I'm given a story about how hooorrible their life is, and they just need a couple of bucks from me? They're preying on your guilt. They're playing your good nature against you. They know it, they practice it, and it's done with the same selfish malice as a CEO who give themselves a raise when they know there're people in their company living paycheck to paycheck and having to tell their kids why Santa didn't answer the letter they sent this year.

They don't feel that they're doing anything wrong. They've convinced themselves that there's no malice, or that it's even selfish. It's just something they "deserve."

I lack the time and skills to ascertain who truly does need assistance and who does not. Again, that's why the shelters are there. They know far better than I who needs what sort of help.