Are there any viable LATOC communities out there?

[the Black Hunter]

Black Hunter,

It's an interesting situation, one that as a newbie, should be less perplexing, but I've made multiple attempts at maintaining survival clubs over the years, and none of them have worked out for longer than a period of months.  I feel like this is something a sociologist or anthropologist should be able to answer:  What is the missing ingredient to forming community?

Well, given our experiences and the experiences of others and the stories i've heard about how people mostly are these days, i'm beginning to think that after so many generations of excess and entitlement, the deep survival instinct has been bred out of us.  We will no more survive than would a poodle turned out into Yellowstone.

One scenario that I believe will play out for those who do have some instinct, but have not been proactive, is this:  collapse will get into full gear and those who have the places will have plenty of slaves.  The wage slaves (middle class) will become slaves  of a more basic stripe.  This is why the time to act is now.

But I don't think it will happen.  Toughness, community mindedness, adaptability, etc. are things we are raised to have, or not.  They cannot be turned on like a switch.  Add to this the monumental complications of life today and the fact that very few are willing to make real sacrifices - leave family behind, etc - things that our ancestors had to do all the time for a chance at survival.  So many will simply die - maybe waiting for the mall to open.

I am even beginning to wonder if the rich were right in their approach of amassing as much wealth as possible - perhaps they have the strongest innate survival instinct in our times, expressing itself given the opportunities of our times.  They are not in my mind the greatest sorts of folks, but they have a ruthlessness and perhaps they are to be the survivors.

[hillwalker]

I'm with BH here.

I've visited a couple of 'eco-villages' one of them pretty formally. That one actually had something akin to what we called an
OPA (office of public affairs) that organized and hosted educational tours a few times a year for folks who were interested
in what they were doing.

When i first encountered that particular eco-village (while I was out 'greenlaning' or what some folks might call reconnoitering, but
really just driving around) I saw signs to the place, and got all set to be dismissive. But i did some research and was moved by
the founders 'earnestness' (as I often am) and went on a tour. Personally, I think these folks are really naive, but by golly,
they are trying to actually physically imagine a better world. I cannot -or rather will not- fault them.

I'm not them though.

The amish and mennoite folks I've had dealings with, otoh, are in it for the long haul. They trade with us, because it's to their
benefit to do so. Not because they need to. I'm not them either. I like'em a lot. But I'm quite a bit more the hillbilly.

[madison]

I have visited five different intentional communities (my definition, maybe not theirs) and found most to be uninformed about peak oil and resource depletion, utterly dependent upon petroleum based energy and electricity and interested only in being eco-conscious and hip and rebellious.  Most seemed to be wannabe hippies, really, who were born too late or were actually old hippies who killed too many braincells to be useful.  Though, some of their properties could be useful, if they died-off from being bummed out.

[the Black Hunter]

Hippies - well, the hippies were right.  They just didn't have what it took to pull it off.  (Actually, that's not entirely fair - some of them did and are still "out there" doing it.)  One of the things they did wrong was 'celebrate' too damn much.  Pre-industrial style living is not well served by motivation killing habits like weed, for instance.

You are fortunate to be near the Amish, Hillwalker.  I have often reflected that this is where i'd position myself if I were American.  But the Amish in Canada are all in southern Ontario, which would have been lovely 200 years ago, but far too tame for my tastes today.

For those seeking community, here's a lead, for what it's worth: http://www.wildhorseranch.ca.  I have talked to this guy - his approach isn't entirely my cup of tea, but he is the first guy i've talked to who "gets it."  He has a practical working plan in place for the pre-collapse phase as well as collapse, is highly multi-talented where practical skills are concerned, has some very generous offers to make (he's made me some) and is desperately seeking folks.  His thoughts are pretty much in keeping with ours on here, chief among them being that he just doesn't think even the North Americans who "get it" really get it.  He's pretty much given up on his countrymen, but he's asked me to spread the word about his project.

Sans finding a village of people from my own pathetic class (the middle), I am wondering if any of the filthy rich have been setting up sustainable villages and are looking for inhabitants?  I'd be interested in this. 

[ellen45]

Hippies - well, the hippies were right.  They just didn't have what it took to pull it off.  (Actually, that's not entirely fair - some of them did and are still "out there" doing it.)  One of the things they did wrong was 'celebrate' too damn much.  Pre-industrial style living is not well served by motivation killing habits like weed, for instance.

You are fortunate to be near the Amish, Hillwalker.  I have often reflected that this is where i'd position myself if I were American.  But the Amish in Canada are all in southern Ontario, which would have been lovely 200 years ago, but far too tame for my tastes today.

For those seeking community, here's a lead, for what it's worth: http://www.wildhorseranch.ca.  I have talked to this guy - his approach isn't entirely my cup of tea, but he is the first guy i've talked to who "gets it."  He has a practical working plan in place for the pre-collapse phase as well as collapse, is highly multi-talented where practical skills are concerned, has some very generous offers to make (he's made me some) and is desperately seeking folks.  His thoughts are pretty much in keeping with ours on here, chief among them being that he just doesn't think even the North Americans who "get it" really get it.  He's pretty much given up on his countrymen, but he's asked me to spread the word about his project.

Sans finding a village of people from my own pathetic class (the middle), I am wondering if any of the filthy rich have been setting up sustainable villages and are looking for inhabitants?  I'd be interested in this. 

I think the most important reasons why the religiously based groups "work" and most of the pot-smoking idealist communities fail, are explained by two little words, discipline and integrity.

Speaking as someone who came in on the tail end of the hippie/back to the land movement and watched them fail, those were the two things lacking.  There was lots of idealism but not much in the way of the kind of bone-deep integrity the religious groups have that can enable individuals and groups to practice disciipline even when the going gets tough. 

Oddly, though, some old hippies like myself are finding each other again and now that we're not pot smoking twenty-somethings there is a lot more disicpline and integrity than there was back in the seventies.   Alas, however, there is much less energy.

[seraphima]

There are a number of transition towns up and running, either by that name (Transistion Town Whidbey) or as Sustainable_____ (Sustainable Homer, etc. )It actually takes a village to small town size place to really be big enough to have a small economy, alternate energy on the town scale, etc.

Each place will have strengths and weaknesses- one will have good agriculture but poor energy resources, another the opposite.  Do some internet searches and homework, and pick one that appeals to you.

While individual families have to do all they can for their unit and extended family, it is much much stronger to also be part of a community with a culture of cooperation and preparedness for transition. There is simply no way one can do everything for oneself.

Intentional communities are interesting to learn from; but from my point of view, too small to be viable long term for most people.

[dorothyann]

I watched a little ditty about a small community in Kirksville, MO. Kirksville is in the north eastern part of the state.
They didn't however seem to be PO aware. They were all "lets eat berries and grass, hug the trees and be super politicaly
correct, super liberal hippies." Myself, I like meat and the death penalty too much to get into that type of community.
They had some good things going on but some of them would not fly in a PO world. They have a few deisal vehicles that run
on used vegy oil that they collect from area eateries. It appears that the main objective is to live "green" rather than self
sustainability.

Yes.  This is our issue, too.  This is a pendulum society we live in.  As a result, we are a world of extremists on both sides of the spectrum, people who can't wait to not only label others, but themselves as well and then adhere to that label no matter how stunted and extreme it makes them.  "I'm a Conservative!"  "I'm a Liberal!" "I'm Green!"  "Pave the World!"  "Save Everything!" "Drilling is the Answer to All Questions!" - it's either GI Joe who thinks killing is a sport and maybe even a fun profession, or Johnny Eden tree-hugger who wants to love everything including the bear that is disembowelling him (or the neighbor about to do the same), share all meals holding hands with the one that isn't holding the fork and prance around singing "kum-bay-ya" all day ignoring the fact that his feet just turned black from frost. 
I've run into the same problem, concerning peopl wanting to fight it out on a/the political stances of one party or nother.  I'm just trying to find some answers, and other  people interested in self-sifficiancy.
I own a herd of goats (meat goats) have been trying out on my own to grow a garden, but am very enexperienced. 
I feel at a loss as to where to turn to next.
Well, we're opposed to either type on our place.  We want people who don't need to live under a label.  Just give us some decent, realistic, honest, objective pioneering-type folks.  Folks who don't think in simplistic terms like conservative/liberal.  We're looking for a critically Endangered Species, in other words. 

[WeedEater]

Critically endangered species, eh?  I like the terminology, though I doubt anyone fitting the pioneering description is anything truly special!  We are just using this forum to try and come together and support each other.  Hopefully, it will give us an edge against others in the future.  In any case, welcome to the nuthouse!

[bowman]

Sans finding a village of people from my own pathetic class (the middle), I am wondering if any of the filthy rich have been setting up sustainable villages and are looking for inhabitants?  I'd be interested in this. 

Damn, Hunter, I think that's about the most depressing thing I've read in a long time.  Only because I've read enough of your other posts to know what your personal inclinations are.  Are you really becoming so disillusioned that you'd be willing to pull up stakes and abandon your own local preps and throw in your lot with a rich future feudal land baron, rather than holding out for your own lower-to middle-class neighbors to see the light and start pulling together of their own accord?  Or have I misinterpreted your question? 

No judgment there, I have no idea what your neighbor situation is.  And I haven't started proper work on the same issues in my own neck of the woods either:  as I've said before I'm still in limbo looting the sinking ship and trying to time my dash for the lifeboat, so I still don't even own any land, and don't spend enough time at home to know how many good neighbors I'm likely to have.  But you always give the impression of being pretty rooted and pretty far advanced in your preps, so the fact that you would consider moving is pretty depressing. 

I've always been pretty skeptical of the idea that any kind of intentional community is a viable model for the future.  In that I would include even your rich land baron (or intentional village under a rich patron, or whatever).  The problem I see is that by definition the bonds that hold an intentional community together have their origin in an idea (even a really tangible idea, like PO survival, or sustainability, or whatever) rather than primary loyalties like blood or kinship or religion or shared history or shared culture.  I can't imagine any idea-based community that can compete with actual primary loyalties, basically tribalism.  So to me the challenge is how do we re-establish a tribal identity.  And the filthy rich land baron approach is a sure way to make sure a tribe DOESN'T form.  Working tribal models are almost invariably egalitarian. 

I suppose the land baron can rule through fear and intimidation, and that's been shown to work, but I would expect his life expectancy would be short, and his quality of life pretty shitty, always watching his back and having to be a ruthless asshole to keep the peasants submissive.  Doesn't sound fun, for the baron or the peasant either one. 

I'd love to be able to offer you a future slot in our own neck of the woods, god knows we could use someone with draft horse and farming skills, but unfortunately we're way behind you on the preps so not much good for you.  But if you're ever in the neighborhood, either traveling or fleeing from MZBs or a new ice-age or whatever, you'd be welcome. 

Anyway, good luck. 

[the Black Hunter]

Yes, it is depressing, isn't it?  Exploring the dark side of the options, I suppose. 

Our situation is this: we have two doomsteads, basically.  One is on the Alberta plains, where i now live with my partner who works in the city an hour away.  The other is in central BC.  We have a small horse-powered farming thing going on here in Alberta.  The plan had been to move to BC where we'd transfer the initiative to the larger, off-grid place - the place has far more attributes lending it to sufficiency, including trees, water, better neighbors, and crown land on all sides.  But the local economy is tanking worse than Alberta, and we have been spooked about not being able to survive the "startup period" on local money. 

I vacillate in and out of panic at being stuck on the high plains when everything shuts down.  Now, the high plains are a spectacular place and what i was born for.  But i was born for the high plains of 200 years ago, replete with the great herds and the indigenous cultures, not the high plains of today of "no-brain farming" (giant agribusiness) and jealous ranchers in which everything bigger than a coyote has been wiped out and the rivers have been sucked 80% dry for irrigation.  There's not much to survive on here.  We might be able to do it, but I dunno. 

The other thing is, having run this experiment relying heavily on pre-industrial methods, i perhaps understand more urgently how much we need community to survive this way.  It is a way of life meant for many hands.  And we don't have it here, yet.  Our neighbors are few and far between (driving the road home at night our farmhouse is a tiny beacon of light alone in blackness.)  They are okay, but not exactly the kind i'd want to be stranded with.

We've been fishing for community for several years now.  We're lucky to be putting our heads together with a fellow latocer out here who shares our sense of urgency.   Interesting your take on intentional community - we have been discussing an eco-warrior monastery after arriving at a similar conclusion - it takes a tribe sharing something visceral to stick together! 

The comment on the rich guys was in wondering if any Ted Turner type might have begun something of this ilk, someone who truly needed and would value people of our skillset.  But i suspect you're right - better to eke it together ourselves.

You'd be welcome here, too.  Thanks for the offer!     

[Filipek]

Oh, and my citizenship allows me to live in Europe, Australia and NZ.

I don't know much about NZ or Australia (or North America), but in Europe your best bet is to head as far East as you can while staying within the relatively (for now) stable sphere of the EU. For now there's universal healthcare and schooling in the East (commie legacy) and that isn't going to go away until the very last minute. But more importantly, Eastern Europe is light years behind the West as far as 21st infrastructure goes. Obviously in the big cities these days you'd be hard pressed to spot the difference, but out in the countryside things are still very 19th century in many places.

In Poland, for example, you won't find much of an organised PO community and as far as I know the only town with any transition movement is Gdansk... but you will still find plenty of small, rural towns/villages in Poland's wild east where horses and oxen are still being used and people live an almost subsistence lifestyle. I live in a small, densely populated city of about 60,000 and just a few km outside the centre you'll still see working horses. OK, it's not exactly the Amish, but the situation is much better compared to Western Europe where petrochemicals are king. Move further away from the towns and things are even more traditional.

As a bonus by-product of six decades of rampant governmental mismanagement, much of Poland/eastern Europe is still off-grid as far as highways go. Cars were an expensive luxury until recently so small towns are still easily walk-able and all the larger cities have fully functional public transport networks. Lack of roads also means that the rail system (shoddy but functional) covers most of the country. Even in large cities most people retain some knowledge of agriculture and often keep vegetable gardens, a side effect of communist shortages and economic hardships after Soviet withdrawal. Poland is also fairly homogeneous ethnically (I think we all know why) which does mean that it's going to avoid the race wars some people are predicting in Western Europe and the USA.

Other parts of Eastern Europe that you might want to investigate are nearby Bulgaria (often the brunt of jokes here, but is actually a very nice place) and Romania. I'd avoid the Czech Republic, it's very industrial and just as prone to collapse as Germany, but Hungary might be worth a look (and it's cheap right now). Slovakia's now in the Eurozone, so avoid.

Remember, Eastern European countries have already been through one collapse quite recently, people are more used to hardship and survival/subsistence knowledge is still fresh with the 35-40+ generation (as opposed to tapping 90+ year old grandfather in the West). I'd really not travel any further East than Poland though. Belarus is a de facto dictatorship, Ukraine is on the verge of complete collapse (not least due to escalating ethnic tension) and Russia... well, it's Russia.

I guess the biggest downside is going to be the language barrier, which will make integrating yourself into a small farming community even harder than it is at the best of times. Eastern Europe is also very dependent on Russian Gas to fuel the municipal central heating systems (it's -14C here right now), which will make things tricky eventually - but on the other hand, much of Eastern Europe is managed new growth forest, so there is short term alternative if things can be managed properly (wood pellets spring to mind, these are popular in Scandinavia).