Why now is the time to forge your own civil defense network

[Dry Observer]

If you are planning to kill a bunch of people in the future it may be best to start your conditioning now.  You need to convince yourself that your friends and neighbors are all sub human trash.  It will make it a lot easier to look them in the eye while they die by your hand. 

"If you are planning to kill a bunch of people in the future it may be best to start your conditioning now.  You need to convince yourself that your friends and neighbors are all sub human trash.  It will make it a lot easier to look them in the eye while they die by your hand."

Really, Daewoo2? How very revealing.

I think I'll save my reply for after the holidays.

To all here of good will, good tidings.

[Grower]

Well, that *would* solve the community prep problem.  

[forager]

LOL. This is some of the biggest nutbaggery I've read here in awhile.

Only 1/400 hunters would pull the trigger on a band of raping marauders? I can see some, maybe even most, people freezing up in their first conflict. That is typical. But whatabout after dealing with the consequences of their cowardly acts. You know, like raped wives and starving kids? Next time around 95% will be pulling triggers. There is a difference between fighting for the man and fighting for home, family and community.

I wonder how those sword fights used to go down when armies faced eachother and only two dudes from each side could muster the courage to swing them?

And what about the people who go nuts when they get pissed off? You know, like the guys you have to pull off people in a fistfight because they are about to kill the SOB?

1/400 my ass.

[Daewoo2]

Huhn?  I'm not planning on killing anyone who doesn't directly attack me with deadly force, and probably it won't come to that.  I'd give them good warning if they haven't already started shooting.

I thought you were the one who was so gung ho about lethal self-defense, with hidden explosives rigged with gas or improvised napalm, and having about a thousand guns and a million rounds of ammunition.

Lethal self defense is a reality in places where the shit hits the fan.  I am also the guy who has pointed out multiple times that it is almost impossible to hold a structure like a house unless it is specifically designed for it and that escape is probably a better idea. 

A very real discussion about the psychological aspects of killing should certainly be included in a conversation like that. 

Seriously....get the book I recommended above.  It is a must read for anybody who thinks they may be involved in or organizing a militia in the future or even anybody who thinks they may someday have to fight to protect their homes and families. 

[Daewoo2]

LOL. This is some of the biggest nutbaggery I've read here in awhile.

Only 1/400 hunters would pull the trigger on a band of raping marauders? I can see some, maybe even most, people freezing up in their first conflict. That is typical. But whatabout after dealing with the consequences of their cowardly acts. You know, like raped wives and starving kids? Next time around 95% will be pulling triggers. There is a difference between fighting for the man and fighting for home, family and community.

I wonder how those sword fights used to go down when armies faced eachother and only two dudes from each side could muster the courage to swing them?

And what about the people who go nuts when they get pissed off? You know, like the guys you have to pull off people in a fistfight because they are about to kill the SOB?

1/400 my ass.

Exactly how many times do you suppose you survive a band of raping marauders if you dont pull the trigger the first time? 

From my original quotes:

In World War II and before, only 15 to 20 percent of soldiers fired their weapons at enemy soldiers in view, even if their own lives were endangered.

Those were trained, drilled soldiers who had been through MULTIPLE battles, seen their best friends die horribly right next to them, and had the full support of their entire nation.  In a totally heterosexual way, when you are in a combat unit those guys are your family.  In a lot of ways they are closer than your family will ever be.  History is full of examples of guys stepping up and sacrificing themselves without hesitation to save the other guys in their units. 

Again, from my original post:

Of 27,000 muzzle-loading muskets recovered at Gettysburg, 90 percent were loaded, almost half with multiple loads!

Again, veteran soldiers....bloodiest war in the history of the country....trained and drilled......

If you want to believe that the people around you will jump up and form some kind of effective military unit when required, that is OK, but history and fact tells a VERY different story. 

Boxing Day Massacre.....189 men, women, and children hacked apart by Ugandan rebels.  Was nobody in the entire town armed (if you believe that you have a LOT to learn about central africa)?  Did those men love their families less than you love yours or the guy next door loves his?  Did they just not notice the 50 rampaging, machete wielding lunatics?  None of the above are true.  They just tried to do what history and fact tells us they would try to do...they tried to hide, they tried to run, they tried to negotiate/beg for their lives.  You really think that you can count on the folks around you to do much better?  These people live in Central Africa where violence and hardship are the norm and legality is more of a concept than practice.

[Broil]

Huhn?  I'm not planning on killing anyone who doesn't directly attack me with deadly force, and probably it won't come to that.  I'd give them good warning if they haven't already started shooting.

I thought you were the one who was so gung ho about lethal self-defense, with hidden explosives rigged with gas or improvised napalm, and having about a thousand guns and a million rounds of ammunition.

Lethal self defense is a reality in places where the shit hits the fan.  I am also the guy who has pointed out multiple times that it is almost impossible to hold a structure like a house unless it is specifically designed for it and that escape is probably a better idea. 

A very real discussion about the psychological aspects of killing should certainly be included in a conversation like that. 

Seriously....get the book I recommended above.  It is a must read for anybody who thinks they may be involved in or organizing a militia in the future or even anybody who thinks they may someday have to fight to protect their homes and families. 

Fortunately I don't have to buy the book, the review seems to sum it up at some length.  It's interesting. Like the author and reviewer, it's good to read that there are more inhibitions to killing than usually thought, it gives one hope for humanity.  Unfortunately the inhibitions usually seem to be on the defenders rather than the attackers.

I don't believe that I'd have any moral qualms about shooting someone in pure self-defense, though I wouldn't do it just to kill someone pointed out to me as an "enemy".  However I do tend to freeze at loud noises and the prospect of sudden violence.

[DraftLady]

My, my how I have thought this through - over and over again.  I have hunted before and therefore taken a life (of an animal) and I think that is important to have that experience.  I  know when I pull that trigger that the other end will likely result in death.  And, yes, my greatest fear is being faced with whether to pull that trigger or not.  In my mind, the scenario is facing someone approaching that I know - but maybe not all that well.  Shoot first and ask later?  Risk putting the entire household in jeopardy?  I see someone that knows me and calling my name.  They aren't on the A list and therefore suspect.  A second to think can get you killed.  It is the gray areas that keep me awake on this one.  MZBs - I will throw all the lead at them I can with every dirty trick. 

Draftlady

[john940]

I'm a long time reader (and I have had other usernames, [preppingsince94] but lost access when changing computers) and wrote the following in response to a blog that really pissed me off.

Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare, by Jeff T.
at
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/10/retreat_security_i_am_your_wor.html

I'm really tired of the quasi-military wannabes who gleefully announce that all of us peaceful future doomsteaders are just going to be low hanging fruit, because they have a stack of guns and ammo in their mother's basement and a few buddies who have played more then their share of video games.

I write this to make a point, doomsteaders aren't dumb, and old time means of collective self defense can be quite effective.  We are not going to cower and run in fear every time some jackass with an Ak47 decides he wants to play King Bandit.  We will not sit back and be passive wimpy farmers like in The Magnificent Seven

A team of 8 to 12 murderers won't last long in the big picture.

Sure, that may have a tactical advantage initially, but strategically, in a properly organized community, they are dead.

So, to my response:


I'm a little bit annoyed.   I just read the blog posting Retreat Security: I Am Your Worst Nightmare, by Jeff T.
at http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/10/retreat_security_i_am_your_wor.html where those of us who are generally good at heart, who have made some preparations pre-event and who, post-event, wish to become farmers and generally live a better life are portrayed as saps ready to be harvested.  The posting was full of bravado and interesting techniques and methods on how to meet and murder good people.

A question for Mr or Mrs (Ms?) marauder.  Then what?  Let's say you make it for a year or two trashing doomsteads and murdering innocents.  Eventually you and your ilk will either run out of targets or meet another group like yourselves and fight over the spoils.  Either way, the question is “then what”?

Given your model of operation, your lack of larger unit support, and your ignorance of the lengths people will go for self defense, I give you one maybe two years to live, even less if you come to my town.

In my town, post-event, we'll be organized as a clan.  We'll have quarterly (maybe tri-annual) town gatherings (big parties actually) where all the inhabitants of the local doomsteads will gather, trade, gossip and re-new individual contacts and recognition.  One of the main objectives being to help everyone know everyone else in the clan and renew our collective defensive strategies.  Anyone who is not a member of the clan, is and outsider.  While some outsiders can be good, there are many many outsiders who are bad, very bad.

And because of them we'll have our collective defense which will be based on Control, Vigilance and Deterrence.

Control:  Our borders will be defined and posted.  We'll have contact and mutual agreements with neighboring towns/clans.  The borders will be clearly posted with instructions on where outsiders (non clan members) may enter and how they will register to pass through or trade.  Any single individual with a mule/horse cart of trade goods will find easy passage and low resistance.  He won't have to wait long at the “visitor staging area” to receive instructions on how to respond to security challenges from our residents and patrols.  Others may find it easier or prudent to go elsewhere or take a different route.

Vigilance: We'll have created a series of signals and means of communication for our clan members to announce any unauthorized encounters.  We'll also have a routine where each doomstead will check in with a matrix of other doomsteads to verify all is well, and follow-up procedures for those who slept in, went a visiting, or are being held hostage or murdered.  Our teenage boys (and girls for that matter) typically between the ages of 15 to 18 will be our primary resource for daily patrols and check-ins.  Kids that age are generally hearty, like to get out and about, and with school not providing a social outlet (since it is likely to be unavailable) this will give a chance for them to meet others of their age and form the friendships and relationships of their futures.  Each patrol of three will be equipped with various means of signaling all is well or otherwise.  They will have instructions, procedures and training on how to react to various encounter situations. The number one response will always be “verify and report”.  Once you are discovered, either by the result of one of your attacks, or stumbled upon by a farmer or one of our patrols, you'll be in a difficult situation.  Basically, it will be hunting season for my clan.  A swarm of armed, angry ants looking for your asses in territory we know far better then you.  We will kill you as necessary, but some of you will be taken alive.
Why alive?  Why for the last element of our defense, deterrence.

Deterrence: You see, when you came to our border, the signs you saw that suggested you go to register at the town hall weren't just text and arrows.  They included human bodies.  At least the remnants of of what may have been human at one time.  These displays will serve to reinforce the message, don't fuck with us.  It won't take many murders or burned out doomsteads for the members of my clan to embrace a healthy respect for the proper use of deterrence displays.  The medieval Wheel will likely be a favorite.  It is quite gruesome, painful, and it lasts longer then burning at the stake (which can always be added later).  In medieval times, persons subject to the Wheel could last for days, often dying of dehydration before succumbing to any of their wounds, all the while suffering in great agony.  However, I would suggest any of the surviving members of your murderous party won't have to worry about dehydration.  We'll do our best to maintain you in your state of agony for as long as possible.  Heck, feeding tubes may even be required.  There are a number of ways to create effective displays of deterrence and it is not necessary to go into detail here, the example of the wheel should be enough for you to get the idea.  And it shouldn't take many times for the word to spread that our clan isn't friendly to hostiles.

So, Mr. “I'm your worst nightmare”, you are right, you maybe just that for a doomstead or two.  You may have your fun for about six months or a year, but in the end, you will be hunted down and found.  You will most likely die quickly in a shootout with 50 angry armed farmers (if you're lucky), or you may find yourself stretched between two trees with half your skin flayed off and a dozen or so kids dancing around your bleeding body as they use squirt guns filled with salt water or alcohol.  Your screams will act as a nice deterrent to any other stupid bad ass mother fuckers who might think it is cool to kill farmers, mothers, grandmothers, grandfathers, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters or children of our clan.

Whose nightmare is it now?

nice ideas and concepts but your description sounds a lot like that show on tv called Survivor. In there was also a lot of backstabbing and a lot of issues.

i dont think a big group is necessarily what would be ideal people have different personalities and this always gets in the way when you have group functions. hell, the last thing you would want is for people with differences to be armed and "watching".

how about flying under the radar, be more inconspicuous? do you need to have a big ol society over it?

[Doomsteader1994]

nice ideas and concepts but your description sounds a lot like that show on tv called Survivor. In there was also a lot of backstabbing and a lot of issues.

i dont think a big group is necessarily what would be ideal people have different personalities and this always gets in the way when you have group functions. hell, the last thing you would want is for people with differences to be armed and "watching".

how about flying under the radar, be more inconspicuous? do you need to have a big ol society over it?

In Survivor multiple people are vying to win a single prize.  The game is designed to create conflict.

In Post-TEOTWAWKI, there are multiple prizes, all of them named survival.  If you live you win, if you neighbor lives he wins, and by winning he can help you win. Win, Win all around.

The idea is to "fly under the radar" as much as possible, but when the few starving Yahoos with AK47's start killing my neighbor's neighbor, eventually they'll come for me.  The trick is to lay as low as possible, keep quiet, build a defense network, create redundancies, and be vigilant.

If attacked by a well organized large force, run.  Run as best and as fast as you can.  But, large forces in Post-TEOTWAWKI will be inherently unstable, and will quickly (12 to 24) months burn themselves out.

It won't be easy, most of your time will be spent tracking down Uncle Schmuck because he failed to do his turn at patrol.  But you gotta do something, I do at least.

I'm not going to sit back and watch my neighbors get picked off one by one and do nothing.  One way or another, either I'm going to get shot or the Yahoos are, and networking with my neighbors is the best way to make sure I'm not the one with the cross hair tattoo.

DS

[TheWarriorMax]

I have tried to learn the lessons the Soviets learned in their Winter War with Finland.

When their troops poured across the border, the finns just picked up their hunting rifles and disappeared into the snowy hills they've hunted in for generations.

They picked off the men huddling around campfires, and cooks. Soon nobody wanted to cook food and they were kept cold and wet.

A Russian general said "after it was over, we gained 21,000 square km - just enough to bury our dead"


Lessons: The hunters were accustomed to cold, navigation, killing. They had discipline and training.
The hunters attacked the enemy morale, not every single enemy soldier was killed. They broke their WILL to fight.
The Finns fought on their home turf with a community of support.

All of the above gels with the OP. Community is your only route to salvation. Preps only will only take you so far.

[Broil]

The Soviets were trained, probably not the Finns though.  They were simply guerrillas, who had excellent rifles for sharpshooting at a distance.  People don't need to read a book on guerilla warfare to do it, it's pretty simple in theory (of course very difficult in practice).